D&D 3E/3.5 Throwing Spears in 3.5

[Ranger REG]

You're right, Garnfellow. It doesn't say. The spear description stated "it can be thrown" with no further detail. Personally, since a spear with a range increment of 20 feet can be used as a ranged weapon as well as a melee weapon (not an improvised weapon), I'd let them throw at the character's attack rate per round.

If we're talking about a longspear which is too bulky and heavy to throw (i.e., no range increment), then treat it as an improvised weapon and apply the abovementioned rule.

 

[dcollins]

The section from the SRD that you quoted /doesn't/ answer my question because it doesn't apply to a spear -- which is a two handed weapon that is designed to be thrown. The section you quoted is only talking about throwing weapons that are not designed to be thrown -- like chucking a battleaxe. Here's the whole passage.

Here's the whole paragraph as I see it in the 3.5 SRD.

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

I agree that 3.5 has seemingly scrambled up this language. Sentences 1, 2, and 4 seem to be about throwing weapons in general. Sentences 3, 5, and 6 seem to on the subject of improvised thrown weapons.

My analysis is that in the 3.5 edit (mostly a copy-and-paste from the separate section on "improvised thrown weapons"), sentence 3 should have come after sentence 4. I would think that the intent is for sentence 4 to be referring to any thrown weapon, not just improvised ones.

I'd be interested in knowing if the 3.5 PHB suffers from this same glitch.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well ...

Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.

Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

...

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.

Thrown weapons - those mentioned above, all of which have range increments - are ranged weapons. Ranged weapons may be used once in an attack action (standard action) or multiple times during a full attack action (full-round action).

End of story.

So, unless Infiniti is willing to argue that "Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet" applies to all thrown weapons, he really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on, given:

Shortspear 1 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 20 ft. 3 lb. Piercing

Note the 20ft. range increment.

 

[Garnfellow]

I agree that 3.5 has seemingly scrambled up this language. Sentences 1, 2, and 4 seem to be about throwing weapons in general. Sentences 3, 5, and 6 seem to on the subject of improvised thrown weapons.

My analysis is that in the 3.5 edit (mostly a copy-and-paste from the separate section on "improvised thrown weapons"), sentence 3 should have come after sentence 4. I would think that the intent is for sentence 4 to be referring to any thrown weapon, not just improvised ones.

I'd be interested in knowing if the 3.5 PHB suffers from this same glitch.

I believe the language in the PHB is identical.

I have the same suspicion that this is a copy and paste gaffe, exacerbated due to the changes in weapon sizing in 3.5. I'll bet that the designers intended for all two-handed thrown weapons to require a full action to be thrown, but this got lost in the 3.5 revision.

I was suprised that, given how common spears are as weapons, I've never seen this question come up before -- and Google didn't point out much discussion on this.

 

[dcollins]

Yes, probably there's sufficient knowledge carry-over from 3.0 players that folks haven't thought to consider this troubling yet.

 

[pvandyck]

I don't think anyone addressed the comment that someone thinks that you should be able to throw the half-spear or the javelin will the full amount of iterative attacks.

You can't. (without something like the quick-draw feat)

It would take a move action to pull out a half-spear or a javelin (even one handed), and a standard action to throw it. Only ammunition like arrows, bolts, shurikens, etc. can be pulled out with a free action.

pvandyck

 

[Garnfellow]

I don't think anyone addressed the comment that someone thinks that you should be able to throw the half-spear or the javelin will the full amount of iterative attacks. You can't. (without something like the quick-draw feat)k

Ha! This was the very idea that first sent me down this bloody path. I was statting out a bunch of NPCs that use shortspears and spears, and I began wondering whether or not they would need the Quick Draw feat to gain iterative attacks. Quick Draw specifically states that "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)."

But you know, I'm not sure that this rule gets followed very closely by designers. I swear I;ve seen plenty of NPC statblocks with iterative thrown weapon attacks and no Quick Draw feat.

 

[Garnfellow]

Out of curiosity, I just checked the WotC website. In a quick search, I only found 3 statted NPCs with thrown weapons and iterative attacks, but none of them had the Quick Draw feat:

• Jonam, male fighter 8: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_CGT_001.asp
• Magoun, male half-human/half-fiend Mnk 9: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20021118a
• Sileeshen: Lizardfolk Male Fighter/Druid: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/fc20000101b

 

[Shadeus]

Ha! This was the very idea that first sent me down this bloody path. I was statting out a bunch of NPCs that use shortspears and spears, and I began wondering whether or not they would need the Quick Draw feat to gain iterative attacks. Quick Draw specifically states that "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)."

But you know, I'm not sure that this rule gets followed very closely by designers. I swear I;ve seen plenty of NPC statblocks with iterative thrown weapon attacks and no Quick Draw feat.

If you look at the master thrower from CW, it's very first free feat is Quickdraw (although, i think that makes more sense as a pre-req, but what do I know). So a first level human fighter could use PBS, rapid shot, and quickdraw to get off two javelins a round. Without quickdraw though, even a 20th-level fighters gets only one javelin a round.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, if you're holding one in your left hand, and one in your right, you don't need to draw any additional weapons to attack twice.

EDIT:

... so long as you either rule as I do with regards to TWF, or can convince your DM that switching hands should be a free action (and it should be).