Throwing your opponent

[daemonslye]

I am looking for a ruling on:

I. A strong large/huge creature (M1) grabs and throws his
medium-sized opponent (C1):

(C1 has made an attack and M1 makes a full round attack):

1. M1 makes a melee touch attack to start grapple.
2. C1 takes an AOO (misses; if hits, foils grapple)
3. M1 hits with (grapple) touch attack
4. M1 and C1 make opposed grapple checks for
M1 to establish a hold (M1 wins)
5. (does the size L or H M1 need to move in or even
pull in C1 at this point??)
6. (next round?)
7. C1 (on his turn) rolls an opposed grapple check vs M1
(M1 wins and maintains the hold)
8. M1 rolls an opposed grapple check vs. C1 (M1 wins
and attempts a THROW).
9. M1 throws C1 - Roll a d20 then add:
Base 3ft + 1' per 2 points above '10' plus 1' per
Strength bonus; Maximum Throw Dist. equals the
"throwers" height multiplied by 2.
10. C1 (which has been thrown) can make a Reflex save
(DC15) or tumble check (DC15) to land "on his feet" or
take 1d6 per 10ft thrown.

So - is this possible? Is this a total "house rule" (I used
the "standing jump" rules for throwing)? Are there rules
that have been communicated that are different? Have
I described the step-by-step process correctly? Or have
I missed something regarding the grapple rules?
I will assume the creature is strong enough to lift the
character (C1 fully loaded) with light or medium encumbrance.
I also assume that M1 could take a move before the
throw (dragging C1 along and envoking AOOs by any
threatening companions).

Thanks very much for your responses.

~D

 

[daemonslye]

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Ahem.

 

[GakToid]

Power Throw

The following feat is from War, pg 46.

Power Throw
General, Fighter- REQ: Str 15+
If you are grappling an opponent, you may make a grapple check to pick him up and throw him. Obviously, you must have a high enough strength to lift your opponent's total weight above your head. You may then hurl your opponent up to 15 feet, inflicting 1d4 + your strength modifier in subdual damage and leaving him prone where he lands. You may throw your opponent at someone. Resolve this as a ranged touch attack. If you hit, your target takes 1d4 + your strength modifier in subdual damage. If he is the same size or smaller than the enemy you threw, he is knocked prone. Your thrown opponent takes 1d4 + your strength modifier in subdual damage whether you hit or not, and lies prone in a random spot adjacent to your target. Use the rules for scattering projectiles to determine where your thrown enemy lands. You may opt to carry your opponent over your head. You lose your Dexterity and shield bonuses to AC, but your opponent is largely helpless. He may make attacks at a -4 to hit and deals half damage with physical attacks. He may cast spells, but must make a concentration check (DC 25) to successfully use a spell. He may use special abilities and magic items, except weapons which suffer the penalties as noted above, as normal.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

well 1st I assume there isn't any tables of throwing distances for heavy object in the dmg somewhere.

2nd grapple
1 I'd rule if the big bad had a slam atack or natural weapon attack like claws there wouldn't be an AoO for the grapple check.
2 in your point 6, I am unsure of this as well, but I think it would only be next round if the big bad didn't have multiple attacks. For example lets say big bad #1 is an astral construct(large) level high ish and attacks with a +15/+10. It would be touch attack at +15, success, grapple check at +20(+4 for size not -1), success, next attack in sequence for the throw opposed grapple check at +15 if successful opponent is thrown.

If there is a throw in the grapple rules I'd use that, if there is a range of thrown objects rule I'd use that. If not I'd look in another system that did have such rules like champions.(look at lifiting power of big bad, translate it into hero system str, look at their throw chart and bang you got number of hexes or hexesx2= meters thrown.) Your save idea looks good, but I don't have my books.

 

[Gizzard]

In the final Gamestoppers example on the wizards site, the Beholder "throws" something using his telekenisis eye. It looked like the DM was winging it at this point, but perhaps the TK spell has something useful about throwing distances?

While you are there, there is also a Gamestoppers dealing with Grapple and Improved Grab. Its not what you are looking for either, but it does demo something which AFAIK is a house-rule, a sequence where Krusk uses an opposed Grapple to try and pull someone free of a tentacle.

 

[kreynolds]

The monster ability Snatch works quite well for big creatures.

 

[Dog Faced God]

I am looking for a ruling on:

I. A strong large/huge creature (M1) grabs and throws his
medium-sized opponent (C1):

(C1 has made an attack and M1 makes a full round attack):

1. M1 makes a melee touch attack to start grapple.
2. C1 takes an AOO (misses; if hits, foils grapple)
3. M1 hits with (grapple) touch attack
4. M1 and C1 make opposed grapple checks for
M1 to establish a hold (M1 wins)

M1 should deal unarmed damage automatically here

5. (does the size L or H M1 need to move in or even
pull in C1 at this point??)

M1 must move into C1's square at this point*.

6. (next round?)
7. C1 (on his turn) rolls an opposed grapple check vs M1
(M1 wins and maintains the hold)
8. M1 rolls an opposed grapple check vs. C1 (M1 wins
and attempts a THROW).

You've just meandered into the house rules department (or into some other supplement which required a feat to be able to do this).

9. M1 throws C1 - Roll a d20 then add:
Base 3ft + 1' per 2 points above '10' plus 1' per
Strength bonus; Maximum Throw Dist. equals the
"throwers" height multiplied by 2.
10. C1 (which has been thrown) can make a Reflex save
(DC15) or tumble check (DC15) to land "on his feet" or
take 1d6 per 10ft thrown.

So - is this possible? Is this a total "house rule" (I used
the "standing jump" rules for throwing)? Are there rules
that have been communicated that are different? Have
I described the step-by-step process correctly? Or have
I missed something regarding the grapple rules?
I will assume the creature is strong enough to lift the
character (C1 fully loaded) with light or medium encumbrance.
I also assume that M1 could take a move before the
throw (dragging C1 along and envoking AOOs by any
threatening companions).

Thanks very much for your responses.

~D

You've missed a couple things regarding the grapple rules:

1. Grapplers are actively opposing one another the entire time they are grappling. It's not as if M1 has grabbed a large sack of potatoes and is about to toss it across the room. M1 has grabbed an opponent. C1 isn't just going to go limp because it's no longer his turn. On M1's turn C1 should oppose M1 to the best of his ability. This is represented by the Opposed Grapple Check (OGC). Every time M1 or C1 wants to do anything with their opponent, they must make an OGC (there are a couple exceptions, but they are very specific).

2. The only options listed in the core rules for grapplers are listed on page 137 in the PHB under If You're Grappling and Other Grappling Options. Moving around with your opponent, throwing them, etc. are not listed.

*The Improved Grab feat in the MM allows grapplers to take a -20 on their initial grapple check to hold an opponent without entering their square. It has been debated that everyone can use this option, and it has been debated that it can only be used by characters with the Improved Grab feat. I personally think that if you want to take a -20, go right ahead.

I personally would allow an attempt to throw a grappler with an OGC with a -20 to the thrower's grapple check, but this would also be a house rule. Basing the results on the standing jump is a good idea, but I would have based it on how much the throwers OGC beats the thrown by.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: Re: Throwing your opponent

You've missed a couple things regarding the grapple rules:

1. Grapplers are actively opposing one another the entire time they are grappling. It's not as if M1 has grabbed a large sack of potatoes and is about to toss it across the room. M1 has grabbed an opponent. C1 isn't just going to go limp because it's no longer his turn. On M1's turn C1 should oppose M1 to the best of his ability. This is represented by the Opposed Grapple Check (OGC). Every time M1 or C1 wants to do anything with their opponent, they must make an OGC (there are a couple exceptions, but they are very specific).

I'm not sure he missed that. I may be misreading his numbered actions, but in step 5 he establishes a hold, right after the touch attack.
step 8 he upgrades that hold, after the opponent on their action tried to break the hold. The upgrade is basically the pin, beat up etc moves. Also once pinned it seems the pinner can do what ever they want to the vicitm with what ever attacks they have left. A throw doesn't seem to that much more of a stretch than popping the victim in the nose a couple times. Also yes throws are house rules, but I don't think i would make it any more difficult to upgrade a hold to a throw than I would a hold to a pin.

And are we all sure there isn't a table, rule etc somewhere that details how far you can throw objects of various weights. If so this would be the 1st rpg I've seen in the last 10 years or so that came out missing those rules.

 

[Dog Faced God]

I guess I wasn't clear about where I thought he was overlooking that aspect of the grapple concept and rules. When M1 picks up C1 and throws him, he calls for a STR check instead of an OGC.

Now... let's imagine two different situations. M1 and I are in a 20' x 20' room with sandstone walls, floor and ceiling. I may not care if M1 throws me. In fact, it may be a boon in that I can now attack him without grappling with him. However, if we're fighting at the edge of the roof of the Empire State Buliding, I do not want M1 to throw me in there. In fact I will do whatever I can to avoid it. I will resist M1 with all my ability. I will try to hold on to his arm, hand, clothes, fur, hair, weapon, skin, scales, anything I can grab to avoid being tossed off of the Empire State Building.

I'm not saying that it should be impossible to throw your opponent, I'm saying that it should be much more difficult than Hulk Hogan makes it look.

Originally posted by Shard O'Glase
Also once pinned it seems the pinner can do what ever they want to the vicitm with what ever attacks they have left.

Once pinned the only thing the pinner can do is make more OGC's to inflict unarmed damage. The pinner gets no bonus to these rolls. The pinned character is not helpless. The pinner may not attack their foe. One advantage to pinning your opponent is forcing him to win an OGC on his turn to do anything else (if your opponent wins this OGC he escapes the pin, but is still grappling). In my mind there is a huge difference between throwing and opponent throwing an opponent.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Ok, I just guess while I think it should be opposed I don't think it should be any different than the opposed check of upgrading your hold to a pin. i might put a slight penalty on it since I think there is a trip maneuver under grapple and throw is like trip+, but at most I'd put the penalty at -5.