Thwarting Mord's Disjunction with Contingency

[NewJeffCT]

I know I'm not going to win the argument here, but the very definition of an immediate action in the Rules Compendium is that it can interrupt another's turn. So, if your mage casts Disjunction and my mage is not flat-footed, my mage could then cast Celerity (an immediate action) and get a free Standard Action (via Celerity) to Dimension Door 400+ feet away and be out of harm's way.

for example - from the SRD:
Intellect Fortress
Psychokinesis
Level: Psion/wilder 4
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 immediate action

<<<snipped stuff in the middle>>>

You can manifest this power instantly, quickly enough to gain its benefits in an emergency. Manifesting the power is an immediate action. You can use this power even when it’s not your turn.

 

[cheshire_grin]

The caster of a 6th contingency spell cannot state, "Whenever someone targets me with a spell" and expect his contingency to fire. I've never taken the spell description that way. There's no way for the contingency, by itself, to identify when someone is targeting the protected wizard with a spell. No matter how carefully or slowly the contingency is stated, the contingency itself is effectively blind and deaf to the outside world, and would not be able to react to a foe targeting, looking at, or gesturing rudely at the protected wizard. The effect has to hit the wizard first before the contingency acts.

Nothing in the spell description obviously requires such an interpretation.

All it says is "[the contingent spell] comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency". It never states or implies that the condition must actually affect the wizard in any way. The contingent spell must affect the wizard, but nowhere is it stated that the conditions that trigger it must. The condition must be clear, but no definition of "clear" is given, and the only consequence of non-clarity is that the spell combination may fail when activated (presumably this is to discourage things like "when someone casts Magic Mouth on the third night in October while wearing a silver robe", not relatively simplistic conditions).

"When an arrow is fired at me" is a condition. "When a Mordenkainen's Disjunction is being targeted at an area including my physical body" is a condition. "When the first rain falls after the spring equinox" is a condition, albeit probably not a useful one (unless you want to use Contingency as a reminder for spring planting ). None of these are prohibited by the spell text unless you are arguing that these conditions are not "clear" for some reason. (If a trained wizard can determine via a simple Spellcraft that someone is casting Mordenkainen's Disjunction, then I don't think it's unreasonable that a high-level magical spell can determine the spell being cast and its target.)

 

[Bungus]

(If a trained wizard can determine via a simple Spellcraft that someone is casting Mordenkainen's Disjunction, then I don't think it's unreasonable that a high-level magical spell can determine the spell being cast and its target.)

good point - spellcrafting what spell is being cast is also a Free Action, which basically takes no time and is less than even a Swift or Immediate action.

 

[Crust]

The conditions you give are certainly clear as day, but they're also "complicated and convoluted" to quote the spell description. By your reasoning, a wizard could set the following condition: "Whenever someone calls my name three times, I'm teleported to his/her/its location." If that's how I'm supposed to interpret contingency, I have a new house rule I guess.

Contingency is cast only on the wizard, not the entire Prime Material Plane. The spell’s universe, its sensory input, its perception, its ability to take in data and react ends one magical atom beyond the wizard's body. Unless the wizard kicks it off himself (eye wink, finger snap, click of the teeth, spoken word) or it's "touched" by the pre-set condition (an arrow, a fireball, a stone to flesh, a meteor swarm), then and only then would it stir and come to life in response to the pre-set conditions, releasing the hanging spell, whatever it may be.

I still don't see how a contingency has any ability to act in response to stimuli that exist beyond its area. The spell description does not state that the contingency can react to such outside stimuli, and I don't see why it should be assumed that it does. The examples in the PHB (falling into water for the instant water breathing and falling through the air for the feather fall or fly) are clear examples of how the spell works, involving stimuli that effect the contingency itself which surrounds only the caster. Water touches the contingency --> water breathing. Drastic drop in altitude and wind whipping by --> feather fall. “A dive-bombing red dragon” would not be enough of a trigger to enact contingency/resist energy. The wizard would have to be hit by the breath weapon (or set up an immediate action trigger to be used before the breath attack) in order to gain the resist energy.

One example of a contingency is Azalin the Lich from Ravenloft (this is from the 2E box). His contingency states that if he is ever successfully attacked from the back, a flesh to stone hits the attacker. Not necessarily by the book, but a great example of how the caster of the contingency must be touched, prodded, attacked, spit on, breathed on, burned, frozen, petrified, dropped from a height, dropped into water, lava, nitro glycerin before a contingency will act on its own. The contingency cannot save Azalin from the attack, and you’d think a lich would prefer to avoid the attack rather than suffer it. Why not just say, “If anyone tries to attack me from behind, a stoneskin is cast on me”? That wouldn’t work. That assumes the contingency is somehow sentient and aware of what's happening all around the wizard, which is obviously not the case.

The spell Elminster’s Evasion is another great example of how I interpret contingency spells. When any of the spell’s 6 conditions are met, Elminster is teleported to his personal safehold on a pocket plane. His personal trigger points for the spell are as follows:

1. His death.
2. The loss of his mental faculties (sleep, feeblemind, mind blast, insanity, etc.).
3. The loss of his physical faculties (paralyzation, petrification, polymorphed, amber sarcophagus, etc.).
4. The destruction of both upper limbs.
5. The destruction of his total body volume (disintegration).
6. His uttering the command word “Thaele.”

None of these conditions have anything to do with the world beyond the contingency surrounding Elminster. Each condition requires that he, the caster of the contingency, be manipulated in some way, having already suffered one or more of the above-mentioned conditions before the contingency takes effect. In the case of total body volume destruction, El’s ashes appear in the safehold to be resurrected by Mystra oftentimes. Should he die, his corpse appears in the safehold. The feeblemind or petrification must be suffered first before he is transported, and he would appear in his safehold a drooling idiot or a statue. If his limbs are blown off, a limbless Elminster appears in the safehold. Of course, the immediate-action speaking of the word “Thaele” means that if El sees it coming, he’s gone, but he has to be conscious and aware to speak the word. The contingency won’t do it for him (won’t be able to see, hear, sense, or perceive any oncoming threats) unless he suffers conditions 1-5.

To go back to my first paragraph, Elminster does, in fact, hear his name spoken by anyone who utters it anywhere on Faerun, but that’s a power granted by Mystra herself, and even then Elminster would have to scry/teleport in the following rounds. How a 6th level contingency could duplicate that is beyond me.

 

[Rabulias]

Nevermind.

 

[NewJeffCT]

so, you are saying the SRD is incorrect and you cannot take an immediate action (activating the contingency) in an emergency situation, even if it interrupts somebody else's turn?

 

[Crust]

so, you are saying the SRD is incorrect and you cannot take an immediate action (activating the contingency) in an emergency situation, even if it interrupts somebody else's turn?

Hells no. Take another look at my post. I used this example:

Unless the wizard kicks it off himself (eye wink, finger snap, click of the teeth, spoken word)...

I used this example from the spell Elminster's Evasion:

Of course, the immediate-action speaking of the word “Thaele” means that if El sees it coming, he’s gone, but he has to be conscious and aware to speak the word.

If the protected wizard knows the threat is coming using his/her/its own perception (spot, listen, spellcraft, however that's resolved), then the immediate action trigger (finger snap, spoken word, etc.) would set off the contingency, release the hanging spell, and protect the wizard accordingly before the spell, attack, or effect hits the protected wizard. This assumes the wizard is aware of the threat, which isn't always the case.

 

[cheshire_grin]

The conditions you give are certainly clear as day, but they're also "complicated and convoluted" to quote the spell description.

They cannot be both "clear" and "complicated/convoluted".

By your reasoning, a wizard could set the following condition: "Whenever someone calls my name three times, I'm teleported to his/her/its location."

Sure, why not? Of course, as DM I would note that the wizard failed to say "consecutively" and teleport him home as his servants are gossiping about him.

Contingency does have a drawback -- similar to Wish. You have to be careful in your condition, without getting too complex, or it will go off when you don't want it to. That limits the power of the spell, very simply.

If that's how I'm supposed to interpret contingency, I have a new house rule I guess.

Ah, so then we agree!

In all seriousness, you're welcome to rule it however you want in your own games. I'm merely providing an alternate interpretation; every DM will have to decide where on the spectrum they want their game to lie. Wizards are broken enough that allowing contingency to be something more than "blind, deaf, and dumb" isn't any more game breaking than 90% of their other abilities.

(an arrow, a fireball, a stone to flesh, a meteor swarm)

Tell me, how does the spell -- which only knows about the universe out to "one magical atom" away from the wizard's skin, remember -- distinguish between: an arrow and a dagger; a fireball and falling into the campfire; a meteor swarm and a handful of coals from a fire?

I still don't see how a contingency has any ability to act in response to stimuli that exist beyond its area. The spell description does not state that the contingency can react to such outside stimuli, and I don't see why it should be assumed that it does.

Because no explicit limits are stated. Nothing in the spell description limits the condition to things the wizard him/herself directly feels, experiences, or is aware of.

The examples in the PHB (falling into water for the instant water breathing and falling through the air for the feather fall or fly) are clear examples of how the spell works, involving stimuli that effect the contingency itself which surrounds only the caster.

The fact that these are the examples does not mean that they are the only possible examples. If I told you dogs and cats had fur, would you assume that meant hamsters did not?

Water touches the contingency --> water breathing.

And it distinguishes from a heavy rain (or a bath) how?

Drastic drop in altitude and wind whipping by --> feather fall.

Gust of Wind? Jumping off a 10' wall on a windy day?

One examplep

Examples are not enough to definitively state such limitations. I'm sorry, but they're not. You can houserule that way, but it is a houserule, plain and simple.

His contingency states that if he is ever successfully attacked from the back, a flesh to stone hits the attacker.

And yet, the spell can identify -- despite only being aware out to "one magical atom" from the wizard's body -- the attacker?

Not necessarily by the book

i.e. Houserule.

The contingency cannot save Azalin from the attack

Patently false. The condition states "is successfully attacked", not "takes damage", and the spell goes off as an Immediate Interrupt, which means the F-to-S takes effect before the attack is completed, nullifying it.

Why not just say, “If anyone tries to attack me from behind, a stoneskin is cast on me”?

Because it burns the contingency even if it's a L0 Commoner stabbing you with a spork. There's no point in wasting the contingency on a situation where you are not actually threatened.

The spell Elminster’s Evasion is another great example of how I interpret contingency spells. When any of the spell’s 6 conditions are met, Elminster is teleported to his personal safehold on a pocket plane. His personal trigger points for the spell are as follows:

1. His death.
2. The loss of his mental faculties (sleep, feeblemind, mind blast, insanity, etc.).
3. The loss of his physical faculties (paralyzation, petrification, polymorphed, amber sarcophagus, etc.).
4. The destruction of both upper limbs.
5. The destruction of his total body volume (disintegration).
6. His uttering the command word “Thaele.”

None of these conditions have anything to do with the world beyond the contingency surrounding Elminster.

You could just as easily argue that their generality is due to a smart caster, not such requirements. Stating "loss of mental faculties" protects against a whole wealth of conditions, as you note (sleep, feeblemind, etc), while stating "any time anyone casts feeblemind at me" only protects against that single spell, and not Touch of Idiocy, etc.

To go back to my first paragraph, Elminster does, in fact, hear his name spoken by anyone who utters it anywhere on Faerun, but that’s a power granted by Mystra herself, and even then Elminster would have to scry/teleport in the following rounds. How a 6th level contingency could duplicate that is beyond me.

Because a 6th level contingency can only have 1 active at a time and is discharged when the conditions are met. Elminster's capabilities have more than 1 active at a time and are not discharged when the conditions are met, thus meriting higher than a 6th-level spell, for obvious reasons.

 

[Vegepygmy]

There's no way for the contingency, by itself, to identify when someone is targeting the protected wizard with a spell. No matter how carefully or slowly the contingency is stated, the contingency itself is effectively blind and deaf to the outside world...

You are, of course, free to make whatever ruling you like, but there is nothing in the text of the spell or the game's other rules that supports this claim.

But if that's how contingency works in your game, then I agree your player's idea won't work and your "make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell" proposal is a fine one.

 

[Vegepygmy]

By your reasoning, a wizard could set the following condition: "Whenever someone calls my name three times, I'm teleported to his/her/its location." If that's how I'm supposed to interpret contingency, I have a new house rule I guess.

That won't work, but not because it's an invalid condition. It won't work because teleport specifically says: "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. You can't simply teleport to the warlord's tent if you don't know where that tent is, what it looks like, or what's in it."

(Actually, it will work if your household servants are calling your name and you're going to be teleported to your familiar home...but who cares if a wizard wants to waste his contingency that way?)