Tiefling, Dragonborn : have they gained traction ?

[rounser]

Seriously, why have you decided to turn this discussion into an attack on Eberron?

It's where the conversation went, and I can see a clear path from what I see as setting design problems with Eberron to problems with 4E's implied setting. From memory, Wyatt has his name on both as the main designer.

And what I said about the design goals for Eberron is AFAIK true, we saw the competition rules.

 

[doctorhook]

How do you mean?

Well, the way I read the OP, he's asking whether or not Dragonborns and Tieflings have traction compared to more "traditional" races like Elves, Dwarves, and Halfings; he further asks if whatever traction Dragonborn or Tiefling characters have is merely the result of mechanical benefit. For my money, I don't think the OP is asking about the history of these races, nor is the history of these races directly in relation to either question.

To elaborate, since we're discussing the amount of traction Dragonborn and Tiefling have currently, I don't think it matters much whether or not they were first published twenty years ago or last Tuesday. What does matter is whether or not they do have traction with the fandom now, even if they did first appear only last Tuesday. The way I see it, the length of time a concept has been in publication doesn't have any direct bearing upon whether or not the current fanbase thinks something is interesting or not.

Its worth pointing out that it's not clear whether Eladrin qualify as a "traditional race" or a "new race", but what is clear is that they appear to be quite widely embraced.

 

[fanboy2000]

I've had one dragonborn and one tiefling in my 4e game. In my 3.x games, I also had a tiefling. (Different player.) I like them, they allow players a chance to play off-beat races. Of course, I like tieflings from the days of Planescape.

 

[Mark]

Well, the way I read the OP, he's asking whether or not Dragonborns and Tieflings have traction compared to more "traditional" races like Elves, Dwarves, and Halfings; he further asks if whatever traction Dragonborn or Tiefling characters have is merely the result of mechanical benefit. For my money, I don't think the OP is asking about the history of these races, nor is the history of these races directly in relation to either question.

To elaborate, since we're discussing the amount of traction Dragonborn and Tiefling have currently, I don't think it matters much whether or not they were first published twenty years ago or last Tuesday. What does matter is whether or not they do have traction with the fandom now, even if they did first appear only last Tuesday. The way I see it, the length of time a concept has been in publication doesn't have any direct bearing upon whether or not the current fanbase thinks something is interesting or not.

Its worth pointing out that it's not clear whether Eladrin qualify as a "traditional race" or a "new race", but what is clear is that they appear to be quite widely embraced.

I guess I can see how this quote -

Or are they rather the 4e equivalent of the half-dragons or half-outsider of 3e : popular for min-max build but rather bland inside ?

- might be parsed simply for its mechanical aspect but I am not sure I think any traction they have now can be completely divorced from their seeming ancestry. Why would one want to do so?

 

[resistor]

I really don't get the playing-as-dragons obsession. I have never once had a player show any interest at all in playing as a dragon/half-dragon/dragon-themed-anything.

Also, what CRPGs are people referring to? I'm not familiar with any that used players-as-dragons/half-dragons/dragon-themed-anythings.

For me, the first time I even heard of the idea was in D&D, and the first time I ever heard of someone actually wanting to use it was when WotC went gonzo with it in the "Year of the Dragon" stuff.

 

[Bumbles]

Also, what CRPGs are people referring to? I'm not familiar with any that used players-as-dragons/half-dragons/dragon-themed-anythings.

The Wizardry series had them in some later games.

As for interest, well, I often see it a lot in players in Rifts, and some who transfer over from those games.

 

[CelticMutt]

To be fair, having fans and being integral for PCs are very different things. As in what you quoted, I do not debate that they have been around for some time as NPCs and evil beings. And for me, long timeRPGers can date back as far as 1974.

I know you've already said you've been convinced of the tradition of the Dragonborn/Half-Dragons, but I wanted to clarify. Tieflings, Dray, and Half-Dragons were all fully playable races as of 1994, in the Planescape Campaign Box Set, Dark Sun: City by the Silt Sea box set, and the Council of Wyrms box set, respectively.

Bollocks. It had a design goal of "everything in 3E D&D has a place here", and is the only setting designed that way (until perhaps 4E FR, who knows what they've done to that). It's kitchen sink by design, the whole competition was skewed to that artificial rule, and IMO it shows. Don't try and pretend FR has a place for everything 3E, because that's bunkum.

Excpet that Eberron is not the kitchen sink you imagine it is. If it were, every single elven sub-race, dwarven sub-race, halfing sub-race, gnome sub-race, etc. would be present. They're not. That shows that "everything in D&D has a place here" is false.

False premise, because poor implementation is just poor implementation. It doesn't justify making everything compulsory so that it gets designed correctly. Get some new designers already if that's the case.

Poor implementation is just your opnion, not fact.

 

[resistor]

Excpet that Eberron is not the kitchen sink you imagine it is. If it were, every single elven sub-race, dwarven sub-race, halfing sub-race, gnome sub-race, etc. would be present. They're not. That shows that "everything in D&D has a place here" is false.

FWIW, he's not making that line up. It was a phrase that was bandied about a lot in the build-up to Eberron, I think from a design interview or something.

 

[CelticMutt]

FWIW, he's not making that line up. It was a phrase that was bandied about a lot in the build-up to Eberron, I think from a design interview or something.

Oh, I know that's what was said before Eberron actually came out. But it's not 100% true of the final product.

 

[Mark]

I know you've already said you've been convinced of the tradition of the Dragonborn/Half-Dragons, but I wanted to clarify. Tieflings, Dray, and Half-Dragons were all fully playable races as of 1994, in the Planescape Campaign Box Set, Dark Sun: City by the Silt Sea box set, and the Council of Wyrms box set, respectively.

Thanks for the aditional info.