Tiefling, Dragonborn : have they gained traction ?

[Jürgen Hubert]

Eberron is the only truly kitchen sink setting, and the guy in charge of the design of that was also the guy in charge of the design of 4E. No surprise that ill-founded kitchen sinking is present in both. Unfortunately there's a lot more damage to be done with the core implied setting than with any specific setting like Eberron.

There is nothing wrong with a kitchen sink setting, as long as it's done right. Fading Suns is a kitchen sink setting, and it's awesome. So is Shadowrun. And Eberron is pretty cool, too.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

In comparison, I quite like the look of Tieflings, though I think they need clearer guidelines to their artists regarding tail size; they appear to vary wildly.

Well, tail length could vary significantly from person to person... and you just know that the males will take pride in their tails if they are especially long.

Spoiler

What the females might do with their tails I will leave to the exercise of the reader...

 

[vagabundo]

I think my group of casual players are a good bellwether for this question.

Although they have been playing DND for a decade plus, they remain very casual and know little about DND-space. They would read fantasy occasionally, but not DND fantasy and would rarely read the fluff in the DND books.

I did not run Planescape in 2e or 3e and did not buy any spats during 3e, just the core books. They have not been exposed to half-Dragons or tieflings before fourth edition.

We've been running our current 4e group for nearly a year now and these are characters they created themselves. They have tiefling (rogue) and a dragonborn (fighter) in the group, and they love them to bits. They did not pick the races for mechanical reasons as they arn't very mechanically-minded.

The races definitely have traction here, for me personnaly the Dragonborn has more traction.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I wonder if the length of this thread just shows that discussing worth and unworth of Dragonborn or Tiefling has gained traction, or that the races itself gained traction?
Friction they definitely cause, though I'd say the Dragonborn "enjoys" it the most. :silly:

I am not necessarily strongly interested in playing a Dragon or Dragonhumanoid, but the Dragonborn did a lot for me thanks to their noble warrior culture. Orcs and Half-Orcs are more savage and brutal, Hobgoblin are evil and cruel. Dragonborn fill a niche I felt unadequately filled before. They remind me of Klingons. (My first Dragonborn character was therefore named after a character from a Star Trek novel by John M Ford - Krenn Rustazh).

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Even if one isn't a fan of Dragonborn they also have fun racial mechanics. So it can always be reskinned. In my Vodou-esque setting the Dragonborn is simply humans from a different culture, trained in folk-magic/alchemy.

 

[Piratecat]

This is not the place to discuss Eberron's default design assumptions, guys. Thanks to folks who are helping keep the thread on-topic.

 

[Barastrondo]

Probably because it's not what I said. I said it doesn't deserve a place in the core of any D&D milieu worth being called such. No problem with specific settings, but as a default for all settings it's a poor choice.

I'm not exactly sure how you're using milieu here. If you mean it to be the sum total of D&D as taken from the books, regardless of setting, I don't really get how there are multiple milieus: there's only the one, which started with OD&D and will keep going past 4e. If you can differentiate between editions, then how are you not differentiating between settings as well? There were no default gods in 2e, for instance, and basic D&D didn't have the Great Wheel; those imply a non-shared setting.

I don't agree anyway, though. A game that has seen rust monsters, thouls and digesters has seen a lot worse than dragonborn. (And I love thouls, but come on, troll-ghouls that are dead ringers for hobgoblins are silly.)

 

[Piratecat]

I don't agree anyway, though. A game that has seen rust monsters, thouls and digesters has seen a lot worse than dragonborn. (And I love thouls, but come on, troll-ghouls that are dead ringers for hobgoblins are silly.)

If you start dissing gas spores or gorbels, Ethan, you're dead to me.

 

[rounser]

I don't really get how there are multiple milieus: there's only the one, which started with OD&D and will keep going past 4e.

Arguably the BECMI and AD&D ones are a bit different (e.g. no mind flayers, half orcs or flumphs in BECMI), and got recombined to an extent with 3E. 4E rewrites a lot of assumptions about the D&D universe and it's inhabitants, such that it's probably the most radical departure from the traditional milieu yet. The non-optional PC races and their fluff, plus myriad other devils in details and disconnects are enough of a change that I don't see it as a continuation of the old implied setting anymore.

I don't agree anyway, though. A game that has seen rust monsters, thouls and digesters has seen a lot worse than dragonborn. (And I love thouls, but come on, troll-ghouls that are dead ringers for hobgoblins are silly.)

It has, but no thoul was ever a core PC race, assumed by default to be played in every campaign. PC races get a massive amount of screentime, whereas a thoul will generally last rounds, and the campaign moves on. Thouls are also easy to "ban" - as DM you simply choose not to use them (although such a move would be very thoulish, IMO).

 

[Jack99]

I think it says (and I am not entirely a reliable source ) that you cannot re-define a race.

Now, Goodman produced the rather nice dragonborn sourcebook. But I don't think they really changed the appearance of the race overall or its "role" in the game. They just provided a slightly different and more in-depth backstory, cultural details, and generally more involved fluff.

Not horribly helpful, I know.

Goodman have a similar book coming out for tieflings this spring, so I guess we will know soonish.