Time of Vengeance [closed]

[Insight]

Looks pretty good. Only a couple of minor issues left.

Toughness cannot be bought like a Saving Throw. You can either buy Protection, More Force Field or Defensive Roll.
You have to make the "Base" Power of the Array Dynamic for 1pp to have any Dynamic Alternate Powers.

If you could, please list the Dynamic Alternate Powers as DAPs and the just the regular ones as APs. It is a bit easier to find that way.

Updated.

One note: I didn't want to pay the extra 1pp to make Snare dynamic, since there's really no benefit in doing so, so I've shifted the default power to something that was already dynamic in my array - environmental control.

 

[hero4hire]

Okay I checked out Fusion.

I will say your math looks good and your sheet presentation is easy to follow.

Abilities look good. Right where I think a racedriving rich girl might be comic-book wise.
Saves have a nice amount of points in them.
Combat here is definitely where our design philosphies differ. Here we have an action oriented woman. Probably was an adrenaline junkie and definitely an athlete yet her Base Attack is the level of a small child or a paraplegic. Despite her hand-eye coordination, acrobatic prowess, and keen senses she cannot play darts, throw a frisbee, or kick a football to save her life. Yet is a trained combatant (attack focus and a load of combat feats).
There is nothing in the rules to prevent this, but it just seems like blatant point crunching.
Skills There a some skills that I find unexpected from her background at such high levels (+15 notice!) while others seem missing from a racedriver background (can you say mechanics?) She seems like she has some training in espionage, or something to that degree. This is a very minor gripe however.
Feats A LOT of them. I am pretty much okay with them (some also suggest espionage training though and definitely combat training) More then one rank of Luck I reserve for concepts that need it. Leader-types, Luck manipulators, Underpowered Skilled Heroes...etc.
Powers Putting Action Flaws on Alternate Form is legal by RAW, but I am uncertain it is sufficiently inhibiting to get 50pp worth of traits for 30pp.
It really isn't as bad as Normal Identity restrictive wise which is worth 5pp and you saved 20pp. I also still am not in love with Feats like Attack Focus in alternate forms.

To be honest if I was GMing some friends around a table, I would crumple up the sheet and ping it off thier head for trying to point save in such ways.
(Putting feats in alt forms with flaws so I need no base attack and get the combat prowess at 60% cost).
I don't mean to be harsh or be a jerk, but I simply dont allow this type of stuff in my FTF games, and I dont really see the need to do it here.
I really didn't know the extent of problems I would have with this build until I put it into my spreadsheet, and I feel rather guilty not having caught a lot of it earlier.

So...What do we do know H4H?

Well we have some options.

I can let you have a go at it again (and again and again if need be) until we get something we are both happy with.

I can see what I can do on my end to make the concept work.

We can scrap the idea and have you make something else.

You can tell me I am too tight-gripped in my character generation and tell me to go F*** myself.

 

[Shayuri]

We're not playing newbie heroes are we? I mean, it seems reasonable that she might have gotten some of that combat training feats and skills after she became a super...

No comment on the rest.

 

[hero4hire]

We're not playing newbie heroes are we? I mean, it seems reasonable that she might have gotten some of that combat training feats and skills after she became a super...

No comment on the rest.

I am fine with combat training feats after becoming a super.
That is still part of the history and the concept though.
Having zero base attack rationalizing it as having little skill in combat then having it lots of combat feats I have a problem with.

Don't get me wrong, I *want* you guys to be good in combat. I want you all to hit your caps, kick the baddies' @$$es, take names, chew bubblegum and all that good stuff.
This is why I tweaked Tendril so she would hit her caps and be better at her schtick.
I also do this to ensure a somewhat level playing field, and not have one character overshadow the other because they are better at point crunching.
I am not saying my design philosophy is better then anyone elses, but I like my players to have characters I would be proud to put in a M&M supplement.

I also want everyone to have fun! Myself included.

 

[Shayuri]

No no, I'm not arguing with any of that. Just saying about the combat and espionage training. The only character I've done the low-BAB thing with was a magic character who was bookish and not physically active and all her powers were perception, so she'd never had to aim anything in her life. Even Genesis, who has some Accurate powers, has a decent attack bonus...it's not PL maxed, but she's basically a brain...who makes up for her relatively shaky shootin' hand by building in cool gadgets on her guns.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

I think the point that he is trying to say could be seen with a different look at what BAB is.

If we sidestep over to DND, we look at the fighter, the more he fights and trains the higher that base attack bonus gets. BAB is not an inborn thing it's the result of all that training.

So no matter when you picked up the combat feats before or after becoming a super doesn't matter the only way to get those feats is to train, and that training will improve your BAB you can't have those feats without having a BAB.

 

[Shayuri]

Yar, seems right to me.

 

[Thanee]

I am fine with combat training feats after becoming a super.
That is still part of the history and the concept though.
Having zero base attack rationalizing it as having little skill in combat then having it lots of combat feats I have a problem with.

I see her as having quite a bit of combat training, martial arts specifically, not trained to fight, like a soldier, but more as body exercise and workout program, because it's hip to do and such. After she became super, she surely had some more focused exercise.

I put the Attack Bonus at 0, because she has no formal, alround combat training, but only the martial arts, which should be melee only. The Attack Focus feats basically allow to split the Attack Bonus between melee and ranged, that's what I did there.

You could also think of it as Attack Bonus with Limited (good with melee only), because that's pretty much exactly what the feats are.

If you think she should have some natural level of ranged combat ability, as you said above, from good hand-eye coordination and general deftness, just let me know what level you would think appropriate (with no specific training), and I'll see how I can accomodate those.

Don't get me wrong, I *want* you guys to be good in combat. I want you all to hit your caps, kick the baddies' @$$es, take names, chew bubblegum and all that good stuff.

Do we have to chew bubblegum?

I also do this to ensure a somewhat level playing field, and not have one character overshadow the other because they are better at point crunching.

Fusion surely isn't a powerful character, she only has very basic abilities, none of which should be problematic.

Of course, her primary combat stats (attack/defense/damage/toughness) are at the PL cap, but that's how it should be, I think, so you actually have the appropriate power level (otherwise you are just a lower PL with more points).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Combat here is definitely where our design philosphies differ. Here we have an action oriented woman. Probably was an adrenaline junkie and definitely an athlete yet her Base Attack is the level of a small child or a paraplegic.

Yep, definitely a differing view here... I wouldn't call AB 0 paraplegic or anything, but just normal for a normal person with no actual combat experience. I see AB as pure combat, nothing else.

Despite her hand-eye coordination, acrobatic prowess, and keen senses she cannot play darts, throw a frisbee, or kick a football to save her life. Yet is a trained combatant (attack focus and a load of combat feats).

Stuff like that would be covered by Attributes and Skills not Attack Bonus in my view.

There is nothing in the rules to prevent this, but it just seems like blatant point crunching.

I don't see it as point crunching at all, actually... but I explained my view above already.


Anyways, if you see Attack Bonus as more than just combat training/experience, then I can just change it, no problem, as I said already.

Skills There a some skills that I find unexpected from her background at such high levels (+15 notice!) while others seem missing from a racedriver background (can you say mechanics?)

Notice - I figured a race driver needs good perception (and reaction) to be able to quickly react to changing situations, hence the high Notice.

Is there even a mechanic skill? Don't think I saw that... maybe up the Knowledge (tech) a bit?

Also thought about Profession (race driver), but that doesn't really seem to be a proper profession in that regard (covered by Drive and other fitting skills IMHO).

She seems like she has some training in espionage, or something to that degree. This is a very minor gripe however.

The skills are more meant to represent her 'high society' / 'VIP' background. Etiquette, intrigue, stuff like that you would find when you maneuver in these circles.

Feats A LOT of them. I am pretty much okay with them (some also suggest espionage training though and definitely combat training).

The 'well-connected and so on' feats are meant to cover her 'VIP' background as well... she knows a lot of different people through her father mostly, hence those feats.

Combat Training... see post above.

More then one rank of Luck I reserve for concepts that need it. Leader-types, Luck manipulators, Underpowered Skilled Heroes...etc.

There is a reason for the Luck... I wrote something about that further above in one of my first posts after the sheet... maybe have a look there again?

Powers Putting Action Flaws on Alternate Form is legal by RAW, but I am uncertain it is sufficiently inhibiting to get 50pp worth of traits for 30pp.
It really isn't as bad as Normal Identity restrictive wise which is worth 5pp and you saved 20pp. I also still am not in love with Feats like Attack Focus in alternate forms.

Why not? It's a pretty big limit IMHO, otherwise you can just switch forms at no cost and time.

To be honest if I was GMing some friends around a table, I would crumple up the sheet and ping it off thier head for trying to point save in such ways.
(Putting feats in alt forms with flaws so I need no base attack and get the combat prowess at 60% cost).

That's not the point though... I just don't see her as super combat capable without the support, and thus some of her combat prowess should only apply, when she has the appropriate support through the exoskeleton, for example. It just seems a logical choice, and that's precisely the reason why they are put there. She does have some Attack Focus (melee) herself to represent her pretty normal level of combat ability (unsupported).


Must go now... will check in again later!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jemal]

Well, it's not my char, but I do have a couple things to say.
First off though, I'm not trying to tick anybody off, just expressing my opinion.

Combat here is definitely where our design philosphies differ. Here we have an action oriented woman. Probably was an adrenaline junkie and definitely an athlete yet her Base Attack is the level of a small child or a paraplegic. Despite her hand-eye coordination, acrobatic prowess, and keen senses she cannot play darts, throw a frisbee, or kick a football to save her life. Yet is a trained combatant (attack focus and a load of combat feats).
There is nothing in the rules to prevent this, but it just seems like blatant point crunching.

Just for the record, according to the rules, even a single point in BaB or base defense indicates you've had formal training, while 5 or more means you're literally a profesional.. Combat soldier/marine.

Feats A LOT of them. I am pretty much okay with them (some also suggest espionage training though and definitely combat training) More then one rank of Luck I reserve for concepts that need it. Leader-types, Luck manipulators, Underpowered Skilled Heroes...etc.

this i just don't understand, Luck isn't really "luck", it just represents someone who's more heroic than average.

Powers Putting Action Flaws on Alternate Form is legal by RAW, but I am uncertain it is sufficiently inhibiting to get 50pp worth of traits for 30pp.

NOw we get into one of my major gripes - ALternate form is Useless UNLESS you're using flaws (Or alternate powers and an array), it's only purpose is to add a descriptor to how you change. It gives you 5pp.. For 5pp... but you only get to use those powers SOME of the time, instead of ALL the time...
The fact that Shay took it at all proves a lack of point-crunching. If you wanted to point crunch, you spend a couple points on morph (Metamorph), and tada you not only get a buncha powers NORMAL, you can retool ALL of your pp (including those 5/rank you would've spent on Alternate Form).. And if you want to LOOK different, then make all of your effects NOTICEABLE for even MORE points.

I also still am not in love with Feats like Attack Focus in alternate forms.

Increased Muscle Mass/Speed/targeting computer/eyesight/co-ordination?

To be honest if I was GMing some friends around a table, I would crumple up the sheet and ping it off thier head for trying to point save in such ways.
(Putting feats in alt forms with flaws so I need no base attack and get the combat prowess at 60% cost).

That is rather Harsh, if I had someone do that to me, I don't think we'd be gaming together anymore, at least not until his black eye healed.

Note Also that I didn't get pissed at you when you had similar problems with mine, but that's b/c you expressed it differently. If you'd said "You're a damn twink, get rid of this thing", I would've told you to shove it. No offense, but Presentation is everything, especially when you don't know each other quite so well.

With that out of the way, are there any problems with Rumble? (*grin* And no, I'm not gonna get ticked if there are, I'm just curious and trying to show/hope for no hard feelings)