D&D 5E TIME STOP SPELL (9º)

[Joe Liker]

I'm sorry, but the semantics of "I target you with this fireball spell" and "I shoot this fireball spell at the square next to you so that it will hit you" is silly. In both cases you're "targeting" the enemy, but in one you're doing it with the outer edge and the other you're doing it with the center.

No, this is actually a very important semantic distinction, not just for DBF, but in many cases. Targeting involves aiming at a specific creature or object. Placing an area effect does not target anything but the point in space where the effect is centered.

(Throwing a normal fireball does affect everything in its radius, and therefore does not work with time stop.)

DBF in particular cannot be said to "target" or "affect" anything that has not yet been engulfed in flames because there's no guarantee the creatures that might be hit when you place the bomb will still be within range when the bomb goes off.

 

[Li Shenron]

I was referring to the exploration "pillar" of the 5e D&D philosophy, which includes such things as trap avoidance and puzzle-solving.

Yes, me too. And I have a hard time thinking about how Time Stop can really help with traps and puzzles.

 

[jrowland]

Yes, me too. And I have a hard time thinking about how Time Stop can really help with traps and puzzles.

trap/puzzle: Magic Clockwork device is ticking away and when it reaches 0 gate to hell opens. Enemies are protecting it (they want it to open) you want it closed. timer is at 10. You have 0 rounds to kill/neutralize the enemies and/or complete 5 skill checks to disable the device.

Solution: Time stop and get a head start on skill checks to disable the device. On final round cast DBF...

 

[Joe Liker]

Yes, me too. And I have a hard time thinking about how Time Stop can really help with traps and puzzles.

Really? In the very simplest application, imagine a trapped chest or an idol sitting on a pressure plate, all Indiana Jones-style. Those objects are not being worn or carried by any creature, so you can interact with them and not break the spell.

But their mechanisms are still stopped in time, so a spring-loaded trap will not activate, nor one that uses counterweights or any other application of gravity, nor any sort of chemical (or alchemical or magical) reaction. You could dance across a minefield and not worry about a thing -- just make sure you are clear before the spell's duration is up.

Yes, there are certain traps that would activate, if the trap is one that derives the entirety of its kinetic energy from the action that sets it off. But such traps are pretty rare, and probably only put in place specifically to catch people using time stop.

 

[Li Shenron]

trap/puzzle: Magic Clockwork device is ticking away and when it reaches 0 gate to hell opens. Enemies are protecting it (they want it to open) you want it closed. timer is at 10. You have 0 rounds to kill/neutralize the enemies and/or complete 5 skill checks to disable the device.

Solution: Time stop and get a head start on skill checks to disable the device. On final round cast DBF...

Right, if you create a challenge exactly tailored to the PC who happens to have Time Stop memorized and proficiency in thieve's tools, so that this challenge is impossible to everyone else, then indeed Time Stop is going to be useful...

Then repeat the same scenario every other session at least, otherwise it's still useful only once.

 

[Li Shenron]

But their mechanisms are still stopped in time, so a spring-loaded trap will not activate, nor one that uses counterweights or any other application of gravity, nor any sort of chemical (or alchemical or magical) reaction. You could dance across a minefield and not worry about a thing -- just make sure you are clear before the spell's duration is up.

Well this is a certainly possible ruling, but debatable. If Time Stop really means a trap cannot be sprung, then why it means instead an object can be moved if you want it to move?

 

[Joe Liker]

Well this is a certainly possible ruling, but debatable. If Time Stop really means a trap cannot be sprung, then why it means instead an object can be moved if you want it to move?

I'm not sure why anyone would debate it: One position results in a spell that is useful and appropriately powerful for its level, while the other position results in a spell that is extremely sub-par.

Why would you actively argue to make this a bad spell?

 

[jrowland]

Right, if you create a challenge exactly tailored to the PC who happens to have Time Stop memorized and proficiency in thieve's tools, so that this challenge is impossible to everyone else, then indeed Time Stop is going to be useful...

Then repeat the same scenario every other session at least, otherwise it's still useful only once.

well...at level 17-20 there aren't that many scenarios left anyway, but I think "exactly" is a bit much. I can come up with all kinds of uses:

Timestop plus walls of iron/stone/force to trap/isolate a foe
Timestop and heals for multiclass cleric (even a wizard 19/cleric 1 can cast quite a few cure wounds)
Timestop and run away!

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm not sure why anyone would debate it: One position results in a spell that is useful and appropriately powerful for its level, while the other position results in a spell that is extremely sub-par.

Why would you actively argue to make this a bad spell?

No, I want to argue to make this spell good I just don't think the scenario described makes it good often enough, plus many DMs will let the traps spring in that case, just like they make the caster in a Time Stop interact with other objects (so that as soon as she interacts with an object, the time of such object starts flowing normally as if it's inside the "Time Stop bubble" with the caster -> this is the debatable part).

Even allowing the traps to stay frozen in time, I just don't see this as a common scenario that turns Time Stop into a significantly more useful spell, unless you forcibly make this scenario much more common than it normally is.

OTOH, allowing more additional spell to be cast during Time Stop (even if they stay frozen until the end of Time Stop), IMHO has a much larger impact on the usefulness of Time Stop.

Let's still remember this is a 9th level spell, and 5e casters have very FEW high level slots. It's understandable that we don't want those spells to break the game, but also they shouldn't be so situational that the caster hardly ever casts them in the average adventure.

 

[Li Shenron]

Timestop plus walls of iron/stone/force to trap/isolate a foe
Timestop and heals for multiclass cleric (even a wizard 19/cleric 1 can cast quite a few cure wounds)
Timestop and run away!

It's a good start!

Let me rephrase my original point anyway...

- Time Stop is significantly nerfed in terms of what additional spells you can cast while everybody else is frozen.
- Time Stop still lasts only 2-5 rounds, i.e. max 30 seconds if you're lucky, but you won't know this until you cast the spell (so it might be you only have 12 seconds).

It is OK to make Time Stop in 5e much less usable for spells combos. But that means you have to find alternative uses to make it still as useful as a 9th-level spell should be. But if you're still restricted to such short time, there are much fewer alternative uses compared to having e.g. a couple of minutes. 12 seconds meaning 2 actions is really miserably short for almost any creative plan.

That's mainly my critique point: nerfing the main combat usage is ok, but they should have then thought of compensating it in another way, and IMO increasing the length significantly would have worked.