5E Time to remake the Bard

Herobizkit

Adventurer
I love Bards. Always have. 2e Bard was best to me; wizard spells up to 6th level, 'Warrior' weapons, handful of Rogue abilities? Heck yes.

5e gives us a taste of the 2e Bard in the Valor archetype, but it's not exactly what I want. One of two changes comes to mind:

Wizard spells, half-caster progression starting at level 1 (Like the newest iteration of the UA Artificer). Bards can then learn new spells through scrolls as Wizards do and can learn one new spell per level-up.

Standard spellcasting and casting progression, but use the Druid spell table. They'll still get a fair range of support spells but I'm not sure what they 'lose' as a result other than Silence and Shatter. This might be more suited to an archetype.
 

Ashrym

Adventurer
I would use enhance ability out of combat or when walkinging into a dungeon and use it on dexterity. It would depend on what type of blaster bard I built and when.
And then what? You drop it the first combat you get to for hex, drop hex for enhance ability after the fight and then realize you're out of slots to keep that up? What impressive thing do you thing you've done with enhance ability?

One half decent fireball or lightning bolt will outdamage a rogue over 3 rounds. Either one will probably hit two targets.
Repeating that hasn't made it true. All the rogue needs to do is get 2 opportunity attacks that qualify as sneak attacks at any point in the day to have his encounters easily out-damage your 2 fireball encounters at 6th level. Rogues are ahead until 14th level if the bard also picks up disintegrate and that doesn't last with thief's reflexes or death strike.

Hitting multiple opponents is definitely an advantage but it's not changing the fact the per target damage ends up lower than the individual focused damage melee combat provides. That's a demonstration of "roles" where one is mobile high per target damage and the other is cleaning out trash mobs.

It's the real reason to take fireball or lightning bolt. If the plan was to spam eldritch blasts with another damage spell and add some utility then cutting to the chase and playing a warlock does it much better.

The blaster bard doesn't have to beat a dedicated blaster, it just has to bring the bards damage out of the hole.
Adding a damage option is a good idea. Adding a damage option doesn't make them any better than any other class that already has a damage option. Secrets adds better at-will spell casting damage. Extra attack adds more already. Bards didn't suffer from burst damage options at lower levels with options like dissonant whispers, thunderwave, shatter, or compulsion.

The only thing you did with your secrets was leverage hex instead of dissonant whispers and handle AoE mobs with fireball instead of hypnotic pattern. It was a different approach to the same ends and didn't change how powerful the bard was in any way.

I just find the rogue an easy class to dump due to lots of other ways to do it's thing if that's damage or skill use.

Main point is bards regarded as one of the most powerful classes and the rogue isn't.
That's not because of the ability to pick up different spells or also do skills or pick up some damage options. It's the party multiplier and support focus in that spell list and class abilities that makes it good.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
And then what? You drop it the first combat you get to for hex, drop hex for enhance ability after the fight and then realize you're out of slots to keep that up? What impressive thing do you thing you've done with enhance ability?



Repeating that hasn't made it true. All the rogue needs to do is get 2 opportunity attacks that qualify as sneak attacks at any point in the day to have his encounters easily out-damage your 2 fireball encounters at 6th level. Rogues are ahead until 14th level if the bard also picks up disintegrate and that doesn't last with thief's reflexes or death strike.

Hitting multiple opponents is definitely an advantage but it's not changing the fact the per target damage ends up lower than the individual focused damage melee combat provides. That's a demonstration of "roles" where one is mobile high per target damage and the other is cleaning out trash mobs.

It's the real reason to take fireball or lightning bolt. If the plan was to spam eldritch blasts with another damage spell and add some utility then cutting to the chase and playing a warlock does it much better.



Adding a damage option is a good idea. Adding a damage option doesn't make them any better than any other class that already has a damage option. Secrets adds better at-will spell casting damage. Extra attack adds more already. Bards didn't suffer from burst damage options at lower levels with options like dissonant whispers, thunderwave, shatter, or compulsion.

The only thing you did with your secrets was leverage hex instead of dissonant whispers and handle AoE mobs with fireball instead of hypnotic pattern. It was a different approach to the same ends and didn't change how powerful the bard was in any way.



That's not because of the ability to pick up different spells or also do skills or pick up some damage options. It's the party multiplier and support focus in that spell list and class abilities that makes it good.
If I was using enhance ability in a dungeon I would use spells that don't require concentration.

Said bard would win initiative a lot.

Your examples are also starting to get increasingly absurd.

If the rogue gets two opportunity attacks, if the rogue always gets sneak attack, if the rogue doesn't miss.

Spells don't miss and they're not generally reliant on your team mates.

Since smart rogues dual wield to double their chances of landing a sneak attack if the win initiative (happens a lot being Dex based) they often don't qualify for sneak attack.

They can ready the action but then they have halved their chance if landing a sneak attack.

A bard winning initiative eapucualky if they are using Jack if all trades/enhance ability means they can drop a fireball probably without having to worry about hitting their own members.

Even if your not a blaster bard fireball is probably on the short list of spells to steal.

By level 7 -9 you can drop a big spell every encounter.

Enhance ability has dual combat and out of combat uses.

In the classic 4 person party the lore bard can easily sub the rogue or the wizard. 5 person party it's also great.
 

Ashrym

Adventurer
If I was using enhance ability in a dungeon I would use spells that don't require concentration.
So you don't have hex and it cannot be part of the damage calc. There's no damage from it to add. Your at-will attacks are doing 2d10 damage for 7.7 DPR. The TWF rogue does 7.5 DPR if he's landing 0 sneak attacks. That's at 6th level, 2 short swords, +4 DEX bonus. Your damage sucks in comparison.

Fireball does 8d6 damage. That's 28 damage on average, or 14 on a save.

TWF gives two chances to land that 3d6 sneak attack damage. That's where the accuracy comes from. It's extremely easy to gain sneak attack. 3 rounds with 3 sneak attacks is 9d6 damage. That's more than your 8d6 fireball by itself but the rogue's base attacks are also included. I'll drop the second weapon attack if the first weapon attack hits and keep it if the first misses. That does become likely in order to use cunning action and typical of actual gameplay. That gives the rogue 15.8 DPR with sneak attack.

3 rounds assumed...

Bard: 28+7.7+7.7=43.2 (or 14+7.7+7.7=29.4)
Rogue: 15.8+15.8+15.8=47.4

The only rounds favoring the bard are actual fireballs. The only encounters favoring the bard necessitate a second damage spell or pretending sneak attack is somehow missing. A made save gives fireball less individual target damage than the sneak attack.

The rogue is doing twice the damage of eldritch blast. The bard's sustained damage sucks and he's trying to make it up by damage spells. Those spells have an obvious burst and AoE advantage. No one is arguing burst or AoE capability here.

That's ignoring things like the assassin's auto-crit and off-turn sneak attacks. A second sneak attack can be done up to once per round and all it takes is an AoO and standard sneak attack criteria. The only reason I was leaving it out was because it competes with uncanny dodge. 2 in the course of a day to match 2 fireballs isn't unreasonable. It's not like standard opportunities come up or effects trigger those after all. ;)

You say you wouldn't use spells with concentration. What spells are you adding now in addition to the other spells you mentioned using? I've asked multiple times for you to post your build level by level to demonstrate how you are doing this.

Said bard would win initiative a lot.
His chance of a higher roll definitely goes up. That matters in the first round and helps give a fireball opportunity without friendly fire. "A lot" should be replace with "more than he does now" to be accurate. The rogue already comes with a good bonus from DEX. My bards typically have +2 from DEX at this level and +1 from JoaT's.

I have used enhance ability specifically for this purpose and find what you do with the initiative you win (or still lose) is more important than winning initiative was. Winning initiative a bit more often but giving up concentration is very often not as useful as giving up the advantage on initiative to cast a concentration spell in combat.

You need to post the build and explain how you're taking advantage of the tactic to back up the importance of initiative what non-concentration spells you are applying.

Your examples are also starting to get increasingly absurd.

If the rogue gets two opportunity attacks, if the rogue always gets sneak attack, if the rogue doesn't miss.

Spells don't miss and they're not generally reliant on your team mates.
It's your rebuttals that are absurd. I calculated hit chance accuracy at 65% so "if he hits" is covered and no different from eldritch blast. The bard still has to hit too. Duh. Unless you actually didn't realize spell casters need to make attack roles too and those eldritch blasts also do no damage on a miss.

The rogue creating his own opportunity attacks can take some investment. Giving the rogue opportunity attacks or bonus attacks from another character is remarkably easy. If your bard wasn't doing damage he could use dissonant whispers easily enough (which I mentioned). Champions can give up an attack to grant it. The command spells works like dissonant whispers. Compulsion grants many opportunity attacks.

I had blended save and not saves as averaged out for fireball and since you don't seem to be on board with that I broke it down more for you this time. I was never leaving that damage on a save out of the equation.

You have a 15 DC save check. Chance to save 30% at no bonus or penalty, and increases by 5% per point of save bonus. You have a 1 in 3 chance of not dropping a standard orc with your fireball at 6th level to put that into perspective. Saves are made regularly at lower levels. Fireball or lightning bolt do damage on a save but not all spells do anything on a save at all.

Telling me my examples are absurd because of things I already took into consideration gives me the impression you didn't understand where those numbers came from. I have no problem with being wrong if you want to provide evidence. The problem is you never provide evidence. You just keep making unsupported statements and then repeat then like that will make them true, or attack arguments without disproving them. Or simply dismiss them because you make a statement and it must be correct because you made it.

Since smart rogues dual wield to double their chances of landing a sneak attack if the win initiative (happens a lot being Dex based) they often don't qualify for sneak attack.
Smart rogues do everything they can to land sneak attack. I choose to use TWF because the sneak attack accuracy rate goes up with additional attacks. That's just a basic understanding of the mechanics. It doesn't mean I'm a smart rogue, lol.

You are wrong, however; there are other ways to qualify for sneak attacks. Having another party member near is the easiest and most common. The second most common is anything that gives the rogue advantage. That's why people use the owl familiar trick as long as it remains alive. I prefer to be different and use animal handling for a mount or exotic pet -- either replaces a party member to be there.

Assassins automatically have advantage on anyone who hasn't gone in combat yet and auto-crits if it's surprise. Arcane tricksters can also pick up spells to pull it off, but the versatile trickster feature guarantees they can advantage by giving up the bonus action.

Sneak attack is easy. It's that second sneak attack (or third sneak attack for a thief at 17th level) that's takes more effort.

They can ready the action but then they have halved their chance if landing a sneak attack.
That's not true unless the chance to hit is 50%. The chance to land sneak attack is the chance to hit with that one attack. I've been assuming 65%, but the 14 AC your bard would have against the +7 bonus the rogue would be 70% for comparison.

Halving the number of attacks does half the chance to hit. ;)

A bard winning initiative eapucualky if they are using Jack if all trades/enhance ability means they can drop a fireball probably without having to worry about hitting their own members.
It's useful and situationally good. It's after the bard has more options that initiative becomes more important. The bards options taken have to match the situation they are in for that impact. That's why I said having concentration might be more important. The more options available the more likely winning initiative matters.

Damage vs 5e's high hit point opponents makes fireball more situational.

Even if your not a blaster bard fireball is probably on the short list of spells to steal.
I don't take it. It's over-rated because I already have spells for mob control and the damage isn't that much per target. The "blaster bard" isn't a thing because warlock does the same thing so much better. I don't get enough secrets to add a damage spell when I have damage spells already in the pinch I might want it.

I don't even take the cantrip for damage because the crossbow bolt does just as much until 5th level and isn't far behind until 11th. By then I have better things to do with my actions than bad damage. I sometimes go with cantrip on a specific style but that's not what I typically do.

By level 7 -9 you can drop a big spell every encounter.
Which is why I don't both with the cantrip for damage. Whether the big spell is damage or not is irrelevant as not as it's useful. That gets back to my point that all you were doing was using hex instead of dissonant whisper and fireball instead of hypnotic pattern.

Enhance ability has dual combat and out of combat uses.
So does reliable talent.

In the classic 4 person party the lore bard can easily sub the rogue or the wizard. 5 person party it's also great.
The problem with that statement is it's reversible. The lore bard can be easily replaced. The skills are minor because 5e went bounded accuracy and removed niche protection. The rogue is essentially a martial class of another flavor so unless you are building the bard leaning towards evasive combat all you are only looking at one aspect of rogues. It's not just the skills, it's the complete package. ;)
 

Zardnaar

Hero
So you don't have hex and it cannot be part of the damage calc. There's no damage from it to add. Your at-will attacks are doing 2d10 damage for 7.7 DPR. The TWF rogue does 7.5 DPR if he's landing 0 sneak attacks. That's at 6th level, 2 short swords, +4 DEX bonus. Your damage sucks in comparison.

Fireball does 8d6 damage. That's 28 damage on average, or 14 on a save.

TWF gives two chances to land that 3d6 sneak attack damage. That's where the accuracy comes from. It's extremely easy to gain sneak attack. 3 rounds with 3 sneak attacks is 9d6 damage. That's more than your 8d6 fireball by itself but the rogue's base attacks are also included. I'll drop the second weapon attack if the first weapon attack hits and keep it if the first misses. That does become likely in order to use cunning action and typical of actual gameplay. That gives the rogue 15.8 DPR with sneak attack.

3 rounds assumed...

Bard: 28+7.7+7.7=43.2 (or 14+7.7+7.7=29.4)
Rogue: 15.8+15.8+15.8=47.4

The only rounds favoring the bard are actual fireballs. The only encounters favoring the bard necessitate a second damage spell or pretending sneak attack is somehow missing. A made save gives fireball less individual target damage than the sneak attack.

The rogue is doing twice the damage of eldritch blast. The bard's sustained damage sucks and he's trying to make it up by damage spells. Those spells have an obvious burst and AoE advantage. No one is arguing burst or AoE capability here.

That's ignoring things like the assassin's auto-crit and off-turn sneak attacks. A second sneak attack can be done up to once per round and all it takes is an AoO and standard sneak attack criteria. The only reason I was leaving it out was because it competes with uncanny dodge. 2 in the course of a day to match 2 fireballs isn't unreasonable. It's not like standard opportunities come up or effects trigger those after all. ;)

You say you wouldn't use spells with concentration. What spells are you adding now in addition to the other spells you mentioned using? I've asked multiple times for you to post your build level by level to demonstrate how you are doing this.



His chance of a higher roll definitely goes up. That matters in the first round and helps give a fireball opportunity without friendly fire. "A lot" should be replace with "more than he does now" to be accurate. The rogue already comes with a good bonus from DEX. My bards typically have +2 from DEX at this level and +1 from JoaT's.

I have used enhance ability specifically for this purpose and find what you do with the initiative you win (or still lose) is more important than winning initiative was. Winning initiative a bit more often but giving up concentration is very often not as useful as giving up the advantage on initiative to cast a concentration spell in combat.

You need to post the build and explain how you're taking advantage of the tactic to back up the importance of initiative what non-concentration spells you are applying.



It's your rebuttals that are absurd. I calculated hit chance accuracy at 65% so "if he hits" is covered and no different from eldritch blast. The bard still has to hit too. Duh. Unless you actually didn't realize spell casters need to make attack roles too and those eldritch blasts also do no damage on a miss.

The rogue creating his own opportunity attacks can take some investment. Giving the rogue opportunity attacks or bonus attacks from another character is remarkably easy. If your bard wasn't doing damage he could use dissonant whispers easily enough (which I mentioned). Champions can give up an attack to grant it. The command spells works like dissonant whispers. Compulsion grants many opportunity attacks.

I had blended save and not saves as averaged out for fireball and since you don't seem to be on board with that I broke it down more for you this time. I was never leaving that damage on a save out of the equation.

You have a 15 DC save check. Chance to save 30% at no bonus or penalty, and increases by 5% per point of save bonus. You have a 1 in 3 chance of not dropping a standard orc with your fireball at 6th level to put that into perspective. Saves are made regularly at lower levels. Fireball or lightning bolt do damage on a save but not all spells do anything on a save at all.

Telling me my examples are absurd because of things I already took into consideration gives me the impression you didn't understand where those numbers came from. I have no problem with being wrong if you want to provide evidence. The problem is you never provide evidence. You just keep making unsupported statements and then repeat then like that will make them true, or attack arguments without disproving them. Or simply dismiss them because you make a statement and it must be correct because you made it.



Smart rogues do everything they can to land sneak attack. I choose to use TWF because the sneak attack accuracy rate goes up with additional attacks. That's just a basic understanding of the mechanics. It doesn't mean I'm a smart rogue, lol.

You are wrong, however; there are other ways to qualify for sneak attacks. Having another party member near is the easiest and most common. The second most common is anything that gives the rogue advantage. That's why people use the owl familiar trick as long as it remains alive. I prefer to be different and use animal handling for a mount or exotic pet -- either replaces a party member to be there.

Assassins automatically have advantage on anyone who hasn't gone in combat yet and auto-crits if it's surprise. Arcane tricksters can also pick up spells to pull it off, but the versatile trickster feature guarantees they can advantage by giving up the bonus action.

Sneak attack is easy. It's that second sneak attack (or third sneak attack for a thief at 17th level) that's takes more effort.



That's not true unless the chance to hit is 50%. The chance to land sneak attack is the chance to hit with that one attack. I've been assuming 65%, but the 14 AC your bard would have against the +7 bonus the rogue would be 70% for comparison.

Halving the number of attacks does half the chance to hit. ;)



It's useful and situationally good. It's after the bard has more options that initiative becomes more important. The bards options taken have to match the situation they are in for that impact. That's why I said having concentration might be more important. The more options available the more likely winning initiative matters.

Damage vs 5e's high hit point opponents makes fireball more situational.



I don't take it. It's over-rated because I already have spells for mob control and the damage isn't that much per target. The "blaster bard" isn't a thing because warlock does the same thing so much better. I don't get enough secrets to add a damage spell when I have damage spells already in the pinch I might want it.

I don't even take the cantrip for damage because the crossbow bolt does just as much until 5th level and isn't far behind until 11th. By then I have better things to do with my actions than bad damage. I sometimes go with cantrip on a specific style but that's not what I typically do.



Which is why I don't both with the cantrip for damage. Whether the big spell is damage or not is irrelevant as not as it's useful. That gets back to my point that all you were doing was using hex instead of dissonant whisper and fireball instead of hypnotic pattern.



So does reliable talent.



The problem with that statement is it's reversible. The lore bard can be easily replaced. The skills are minor because 5e went bounded accuracy and removed niche protection. The rogue is essentially a martial class of another flavor so unless you are building the bard leaning towards evasive combat all you are only looking at one aspect of rogues. It's not just the skills, it's the complete package. ;)
What part of if I'm using enhance ability I'm not using other concentration spells did you miss.

You don't have to be a blaster bard I only used guranteed damage potential.

Even if the bard can't match the rogue in damage it's going to come close. A rogue can't come close to a Bard at casting spells.

That's what makes the lore bard so good. It's plenty good just with cutting words and it's own spells.

It's why it's rated so high despite not being one of the big four classes.

Just checked Bard 29% Rogue 12%.
Bards a 5E powerhouse. Rogues not.
 

Ashrym

Adventurer
What part of if I'm using enhance ability I'm not using other concentration spells did you miss.

You don't have to be a blaster bard I only used guranteed damage potential.

Even if the bard can't match the rogue in damage it's going to come close. A rogue can't come close to a Bard at casting spells.

That's what makes the lore bard so good. It's plenty good just with cutting words and it's own spells.

It's why it's rated so high despite not being one of the big four classes.

Just checked Bard 29% Rogue 12%.
Bards a 5E powerhouse. Rogues not.
I asked you to post your build and support your claims instead repeating yourself. What part of that did you miss?
 

Zardnaar

Hero
I asked you to post your build and support your claims instead repeating yourself. What part of that did you miss?
I did specifically say if I'm using enhance ability I'm probably not using other concentration spells.

I might later on when I have level 2 slots to spare.

The hypothetical blaster bard can use it and probably do well initiative wise and later (lvl 9 or 10) in you can move away from hex. It's just another option.

If you run out of spell slots 1d6 plus 1d10 2or three times a round isn't to bad compared to every other caster that's not a warlock.

That's guranteed damage potential doesn't have to rely on allies, flying etc only range and the rogues in the same boat there.

Worst case scenario cast another spell and give up your concentration you have a few like level slots may as well use them in something.
 

Ashrym

Adventurer
I did specifically say if I'm using enhance ability I'm probably not using other concentration spells.

I might later on when I have level 2 slots to spare.

The hypothetical blaster bard can use it and probably do well initiative wise and later (lvl 9 or 10) in you can move away from hex. It's just another option.

If you run out of spell slots 1d6 plus 1d10 2or three times a round isn't to bad compared to every other caster that's not a warlock.

That's guranteed damage potential doesn't have to rely on allies, flying etc only range and the rogues in the same boat there.

Worst case scenario cast another spell and give up your concentration you have a few like level slots may as well use them in something.
Not hypothetical. Post your build level by level.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Magic initiate feat warlock, Eldritch Blast, hex, another warlock cantrip


Level 4 Cha or warcaster
Level 6 fireball or lightning bolt and either hunters quarry or whatever depending on DMs ruling on magic initiate

10 destructive wave, banishment

I'm kinda pinned under the cat ATM but low level picks

Vicious Mockery

Faerie Fire
Dissonant Whisper
Sleep (swapping it out lvl 3 or 4)
Thunderwave

Enhance Ability
Shatter
Blindness/Deafness

Hypnotic Pattern

Something like that. Anything else is probably utility. Skill expertise in perception and maybe stealth.

Background urchin.
 

Ashrym

Adventurer
Magic initiate feat warlock, Eldritch Blast, hex, another warlock cantrip


Level 4 Cha or warcaster
Level 6 fireball or lightning bolt and either hunters quarry or whatever depending on DMs ruling on magic initiate

10 destructive wave, banishment

I'm kinda pinned under the cat ATM but low level picks

Vicious Mockery

Faerie Fire
Dissonant Whisper
Sleep (swapping it out lvl 3 or 4)
Thunderwave

Enhance Ability
Shatter
Blindness/Deafness

Hypnotic Pattern

Something like that. Anything else is probably utility.
Hunter's mark doesn't work. It specifies weapon attack. It needs to be hex if using a spell attack.

I would like to see which spells you take at which levels. I can wait on the cat, lol. It's not like we need to rush to discuss the over-all merits.

Please clarify which ruling on initiate you to which you are referring.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Hunter's mark doesn't work. It specifies weapon attack. It needs to be hex if using a spell attack.

I would like to see which spells you take at which levels. I can wait on the cat, lol. It's not like we need to rush to discuss the over-all merits.

Please clarify which ruling on initiate you to which you are referring.
If hex gets added to spells known with Magic Initiate.

If it is I'll pick it lvl 1 if not pick a different warlock spell. PHB is beside me but I'm soaked out it's getting dark and the cat she is very comfortable and very warm.

My wife's at yoga and our houserule is if cats on you the other person gets to fetch.
 

Ashrym

Adventurer
If hex gets added to spells known with Magic Initiate.

If it is I'll pick it lvl 1 if not pick a different warlock spell. PHB is beside me but I'm soaked out it's getting dark and the cat she is very comfortable and very warm.

My wife's at yoga and our houserule is if cats on you the other person gets to fetch.
There's a ruling on magic initiate in the sage advice compendium. The 1st level spell picked up with initiate only counts towards your spells known if the initiate feat is from one of your classes. So a bard who uses initiate for bard spells or a sorcerer who learns initiate for sorcerer spells adds it to the spells known.

The 1 use per day is free regardless.

EDIT:

Sage Advice said:
If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1stlevel spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare. In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
There's a ruling on magic initiate in the sage advice compendium. The 1st level spell picked up with initiate only counts towards your spells known if the initiate feat is from one of your classes. So a bard who uses initiate for bard spells or a sorcerer who learns initiate for sorcerer spells adds it to the spells known.

The 1 use per day is free regardless.

EDIT:
It had been a while since I had read that. Fuzzy memory. Probably unseen servant or comprehend languages.

Cats smiling at me with her eyes. Came home from work, she who must be obeyed wants a cat.

Went to SPCA cast find homeless mongrel and got a wild surge and came home with two.
 

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