D&D 5E Time to remake the Bard

Ashrym

Legend
So in that sense, Bards were kind of like a full caster even as far back as 2e.

Definitely.

I cannot count the number of times we had clerics who capped out at 5th level spells. Max spell level didn't dictate what made a full caster because top spell levels varied among editions for other spell casters considered full. Caster level progression demonstrated full spell casting ability. Bards cast spells at full caster level.

Casting more potent spells than mages was gravy. XP progression favored bards a lot and auto-scaling spells were their bread and butter.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Lore bards still have all the drawbacks I mentioned. The chassis of the bard gives spells but it enhances skills instead of spells or spellcasting, or combat ability. The tools aren't there to compete with focused classes.

Trying to do cover too much spreads thin too fast because of the spells known compared to clerics, druids, or wizards. It's easy for a cleric or druid to cover healing spells and still have other spells prepped to cover other aspects of the game.

Lore bards also suffer from too much competition for bardic inspiration dice. Cutting words is good but using it loses the opportunity to use the standard options that are also good, or peerless skill. Using peerless skill just cost uses of inspiration or cutting words. Those dice can disappear fast. The 2 spells known don't give enough to focus in multiple areas or change the fact the class chassis doesn't enhance or support addition casting like we see in other casters.

There is no uber bard.

Start looking at bard dice as additional like level 1 spells that refesh on short rests.

Cutting words more or less functions as a shield spell that you can stick on other people. And that's just one use.

At level 3 it's more or less 9 extra level 1 spells you can use as reactions.

The bard us primary spellcaster comparing it to average damage from rogue is a bit silly.

They can also steal those broken spells in the Paladin and Ranger spell lists. Destructive Wave 7 levels early with hex, fireball and Eldritch blast.

Or take fireball and healing spirit level 6.

So yeah they can match rogue damage at range with hunters quarry/hex and Eldritch blast. Plus they can drop fireball.

Rogues take a bit long to come online.
 

Ashrym

Legend
Start looking at bard dice as additional like level 1 spells that refesh on short rests.

Why would I do that? It's an arbitrary analogy. I did that with 3.5 spell songs because fascinate, suggestion, and inspiration came earlier and were potent. There's a direct comparison with suggestion as the spell and suggestion as the song to validate it, and even better songs like freedom and mass suggestion later that correspond directly to spells.

Bardic inspiration is better than guidance but more limited because it's not at will, and behind spells like bane or bless with because of their durations and multiple targets even with similar effects. 1d4 on 3 targets for 2-3 rounds is much better than 1d6 on one roll 3 times per day, which is where we're really at initially.

Eventually 5 dice at d12 per short rest after scaling up is better, but it's really more comparable to the 6 dice at d12 per short rest expertise dice with more options from which to choose that battle masters get. Unless you're about to tell me battle master maneuvers are the equivalent of 1st level spells I think your argument falls short here. ;-)

Cutting words more or less functions as a shield spell that you can stick on other people. And that's just one use.

Shield lasts a full round and provides the benefit to multiple attacks while cutting words is only good against 1 attack. +5 is a high roll bonus until cutting words gets up to d10's at 10th level. Shield also has the situational perk of blocking magic missiles. Immunity to charm doesn't prevent shield like it does cutting words. +5 AC against multiple attacks is better than a die roll against a single incoming attack.

At level 3 it's more or less 9 extra level 1 spells you can use as reactions.

At level 3 the bard doesn't have font of inspiration so it's only 3 times per day and it's still a d6 so it's a -3 penalty to attacks compared to a +5 bonus to AC that you're applying a false equivalence on top of the other advantages shield has over bardic inspiration.

At that level, a shield that's blocked 4 attacks has outdone the entire day's worth of bardic inspiration, and it's more likely to block attacks.

Since you are using shield to try and compare, just take a look at spell mastery. Shield at will. This is because the wizard chassis supports casting additional spells, unlike the bard chassis, and this is comparing the base class to your uber subclass example. That's not even adding in wizard tradition benefits.

The bard us primary spellcaster comparing it to average damage from rogue is a bit silly.

What's silly is it's an argument without context or demonstrating how it refutes my point. The rogue skill benefits come online earlier than the bard benefits, the rogue has more proficiencies, and the rogue has combat benefits built into the class bards don't.

Are you comparing d4 vicious mockery to sneak attack when you say primary spell caster damage is better? Because bards don't have good damage spells, and they don't have room to add them while continuing to "do everything" as has been suggested.

They can also steal those broken spells in the Paladin and Ranger spell lists. Destructive Wave 7 levels early with hex, fireball and Eldritch blast.

So a 5th level spell is really a 9th level spell just because a paladin is a half caster? Sound legit, lol. Spells are ranked by spell levels and not class levels so your argument is extremely flawed here.

Or take fireball and healing spirit level 6.

Well, one subclass can. Bards cannot. The real question is what did the bard not take to get that? For starters, no AC boost. Next, no eldritch blast, hex, or hunter's mark. They only got two so sustained damage is given up to become and better healer and fodder killer.

The next thing to really consider is how does that make them better than any other caster who has those spells one level sooner? Casting healing spirit didn't make it heal more than the druid does, and fireball doesn't do more damage than the wizard did. The wizard can cast more fireballs, however, because the class supports casting and adding a subclass geared toward that type of spell is going to open up evoker for better casting of the same fireball as well. Or a sorc could also cast it a level earlier and better with metamagic.

The last thing to consider, is that the spell slots are already available for hypnotic pattern or fear or any other good bard spell already taken. Adding fireball when the bard is likely going to cast hypnotic pattern with the slot anyway doesn't make fireball somehow more powerful either.

So yeah they can match rogue damage at range with hunters quarry/hex and Eldritch blast. Plus they can drop fireball.

That's 3 spells so we're at 14th level bards or 10th level lore bards. Presumably the 4th spell is healing spirit because you're trying "to do" everything with this uber bard.

So think about what you are giving up again. The destructive wave argument went out the window having taking those four spells. Considering destructive wave is 10d6 in a 30' cone with prone and fireball in the same slot is 10d6 with a 20' radius and more commonly resisted damage type. Personally, I think the range and AoE wins out over conditional damage type benefit and prone. In either case it demonstrates why "7 levels earlier than a paladin" is meaningless. It's still just a 5th level spell that your examples replaced with fireball.

It also presumes the bard didn't take a great 5th level spell like animate objects one level earlier. Or important healer spells like mass cure wounds, raise dead, or greater restoration. This gets back to the point on about what the bard did not take in order to take the spells in your example.

That 10th level bard knows 16 spells going lore per your example. Technically 15 because you gave one up for a cantrip. That's spread across 5 spell levels. That's not that bad, but it still forces choices, and it's on the cusp of the massive slowdown in new spells know that hits known spells casters in the 3rd tier.

Hex and hunter's mark kill using your concentration so you either don't have that damage or you don't have the use of those other spells. Like hypnotic pattern. Just because a spell comes from another class doesn't make it better than the spells of the same level within your own class, but the compete for the same spells known and the same spell slots.

Getting back to damage, we're looking at 2d10+2d6, soon to be 3 and really it's not a bad way to pick up damage. The 10th level rogue thief has 5d6 sneak attack (soon to be 6), plus base weapon damage 2d6 TWF, plus DEX mod +5, plus fast hands ball bearings trying for prone and advantage for more accuracy (decent enough chance even without high success). Sneak attack itself is fairly easy so if we're going to assume the hex isn't lost to a concentration check or given up to a useful spell then we're going to assume something as easy as sneak attack also applies.

That still looks like the rogue is ahead in damage to me at 10th and 11th level. Like I said, bards make an investment to catch up and still remain behind. Probably better off to cast dissonant whispers and trigger the AoO and extra sneak attack for the rogue. No magical secrets needed for that at all.

Rogues take a bit long to come online.

Expertise, sneak attack, cunning action, uncanny dodge, evasion? What's your reasoning for coming late online? Their best abilities are in the first 2 tiers of play and then they get reliable talent.

Cantrips, the argument you gave for damage, are the epitome of coming online late. Bardic inspiration starts off per day and requires CHA ASI's to build up, and the dice take a while to scale up. That's taking a while. Magical secrets doesn't even start until 10th level in the class.

Magical secrets are extremely over-rated. They can add nice options but all they are doing is taking the place of the other nice options that already exist in the bard spells. It's can add some flavor or versatility so it's not a zero sum exchange, but it's not the game breaker people make it out to be. Not even remotely close.

Bards are fantastic support and can fill in other areas. Definitely not a "do it all" class.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
Bard damage build comes online around level 6.

Damage is more like 8d6 or 10d6 then 2 rounds of Eldritch blast. If your using hex/hunters quarry obviously your not

That's more damage than a level 10 rogue.

And you get all the other bard stuff.

The blaster bard is dealing competitive damage with the rogue, is a lot better at range and is still a primary caster and has bard dice and can heal and good at skills.

Yeah the Roguevwill win at damage level 1-5 but it's not dropping sleep spells or shatter either.

The Rogues the easiest class to replace in the game. Guidance alone is basically better than expertise and you only get 2 skill expertise early on for a whopping +2 on two skills while bard gets 1.

So if you replace the rogue with something better at combat with the right background and guidance in the party you're not really missing out on anything.

Rogues are better in featless game.

Good at skills isnt a strong niche when multiple classes are good at skills and are close enough that a rogues ability isn't that significant. Trickery/knowledge cleric spamming guidance with urchin background.

Bounded accuracy as well makes being really good at skills matter less or you mc out of rogue at level 5 or 9.

Rogues fun though I like the class but from an optimization view in a typical party would probably prefer something else.

A lore bard can easily replace a Rogue or Wizard.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Hopefully my experience gives insight. :)

Wow... okay first off, personally, I dislike lengthy posts. It encourages me not to read the whole thing. Brevity is the soul of wit. ;-)

Now, I still took the time and read the whole thing. It is a lot of insight so thank you for taking the time to offer your input.

No, I don't have a lot of experience playing a bard. I tried one once, for one session, and promptly dropped it. I do not like the the feel or flavor of the bard class. I am also not big into playing a class that seems primarily build for support because IME all the main classes can already fill that role.

Primary combat? Fighter. Support? Cleric or Rogue.
Primary social? Any really, but often Cleric or Rogue. Support? Any also, typically Wizard.
Primary explorer? Rogue. Support? Fighter or Wizard usually.
Primary caster? Wizard. Support? Cleric. (this can be reversed, of course).

In prior editions, the Cleric was often the support role. Healer, back-up/secondary combat, back-up caster, and in many situations (due to high WIS and sometimes CHA) main or back-up social, but could just as easily take on a main role in any facet as well.

The 5E Bard smacks too much of being the fighter/m-u/thief from 1E. But, they made it better at all those things than a traditional multiclass would be I think.

I mean, honestly, why is the class so popular???

Because, even if not optimal, it pretty much can do it all. And it can do it to an extent that makes other classes nearly obsolete. If you played a 4-6 player party of all a single class, your best chances of success would be all Bards. This is because with the different archetypes, you could well cover everything you needed, definitely more so than if you had all clerics, fighters, monks, or whatever else.
 

Tallifer

Hero
Playing a Bard is all about the fluff, nothing about the mechanics. Indeed the less mechanically effective the better. <laughs gaily in a Tom Bombadilicious peal of merriment>
 

I do not like the the feel or flavor of the bard class.
This has been the overall thrust of your statements on this thread so far. Can you see how that might cause me to wonder if remaking the bard would even do anything to change your feelings about it?

I mean, honestly, why is the class so popular???

Because, even if not optimal, it pretty much can do it all. And it can do it to an extent that makes other classes nearly obsolete. If you played a 4-6 player party of all a single class, your best chances of success would be all Bards. This is because with the different archetypes, you could well cover everything you needed, definitely more so than if you had all clerics, fighters, monks, or whatever else.
Alternative hypothesis: even though you do not like the feel or flavor of the bard class, others do.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Wow... okay first off, personally, I dislike lengthy posts. It encourages me not to read the whole thing. Brevity is the soul of wit. ;-)

Now, I still took the time and read the whole thing. It is a lot of insight so thank you for taking the time to offer your input.

No, I don't have a lot of experience playing a bard. I tried one once, for one session, and promptly dropped it. I do not like the the feel or flavor of the bard class. I am also not big into playing a class that seems primarily build for support because IME all the main classes can already fill that role.

Primary combat? Fighter. Support? Cleric or Rogue.
Primary social? Any really, but often Cleric or Rogue. Support? Any also, typically Wizard.
Primary explorer? Rogue. Support? Fighter or Wizard usually.
Primary caster? Wizard. Support? Cleric. (this can be reversed, of course).

In prior editions, the Cleric was often the support role. Healer, back-up/secondary combat, back-up caster, and in many situations (due to high WIS and sometimes CHA) main or back-up social, but could just as easily take on a main role in any facet as well.

The 5E Bard smacks too much of being the fighter/m-u/thief from 1E. But, they made it better at all those things than a traditional multiclass would be I think.

I mean, honestly, why is the class so popular???

Because, even if not optimal, it pretty much can do it all. And it can do it to an extent that makes other classes nearly obsolete. If you played a 4-6 player party of all a single class, your best chances of success would be all Bards. This is because with the different archetypes, you could well cover everything you needed, definitely more so than if you had all clerics, fighters, monks, or whatever else.


All cleric wouldn't be to bad.

Forge plus war as beatsticks, light as your wizard trickery or knowledge as your bard/rogue.

Nature and Arcana would be useful as well.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
All cleric wouldn't be to bad.

Forge plus war as beatsticks, light as your wizard trickery or knowledge as your bard/rogue.

Nature and Arcana would be useful as well.
In 5e, all anything isn't too bad. It just limits the types of approaches you can take to a given problem.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I mean, honestly, why is the class so popular???
Because Bard was a cool/awesome character in the Hobbit?

No one's done the "Bard would just be a high-level fighter or ranger with an Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying" joke yet, right?

Or, because you can insult your enemies to death?

If you played a 4-6 player party of all a single class, your best chances of success would be all Bards. This is because with the different archetypes, you could well cover everything you needed, definitely more so than if you had all clerics, fighters, monks, or whatever else.
IDK about /best/. But, sure all-full-casters of some sort, with some secondary melee ability. So all clerics with a Life & War Cleric to form a front line when necessary. Or all Druids, including some Moon Druids to mix it up when you're not all shapechanged into inconspicuous forest critters, raining Call Lightning on your bewildered enemies (ah, good times). Or all Wizards with the odd Bladesinger (and the even shield golem or whatever).
 

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