D&D 5E Time to remake the Bard

I do like the mechanic of the Chanters from Pillars of Eternity and it's sequel.

For those unfamiliar, they chant bits that do not take their action. These have an onset time, and also a lag time after the end of the song where the effects linger. Short story would be that you have nothign the "first round", then one, and then as long as you only alternate between two you effectively have them both up. Both give aura-style bonuses. Again, none of that takes up your action so you could be attacking or whatever. (Though in 5e I'd have it take up your concentration.)

Chanting phrase also collects power for their spells. They don't have slots, they have a minimum number of phrases chanted. However, combat in PoE lasts a lot longer than D&D, so it's easy to build up 4+ phrases chanted several times in the average combat. If it was one per round that would be 12+ rounds as the average for combat, so it has to be quicker. Casting is an action.
The problem with "aura classes" is that however compelling they are conceptually they usually end up a bit boring. Yeah, the elevator pitch of "This guy sings different songs that buff his party in various ways!" makes a lot of sense, and having it not take his action would seem to be a good thing... but it means that the things he actually does with his action, the things the player is paying attention to, tend to be underwhelming basic attacks or other stuff in that vein. So it feels bad. The chanter has a partial solution in spells, but only gets to cast a spell once every twelve or fifteen seconds. (Contrast the cipher, PoI's other "weird caster" class, who could open combat with a spell and usually get another one after every couple of autoattacks.)
 

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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
It steps on way too many toes.
The D&D community as a whole really needs to get over this concept: Niche protection is dead.

And lets face it, if you sanded down the Bard, something else would naturally take it's place as the "Do it all" class. Probably the Druid or Cleric.

Edit: To be constructive to the topic, take a look at the Artificer, it's a Half-caster (plus cantrips) that fills the "Rogue" position in exploration, plus a good deal of support.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I liked the 3.5 and PF bard.

PF2 one also looks good.

Main problem was they were in the wrong edition. That whole CoDzilla thing.

5E bard is a great class but doesn't feel that much like a bard more like a 3.5 Beguiler on steroids.

Great class mechanically feel not so much.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The problem with "aura classes" is that however compelling they are conceptually they usually end up a bit boring. … it means that the things he actually does with his action, the things the player is paying attention to, tend to be underwhelming...
Certainly was the case with the Miniatures Handbook Martial, and the Bard suffered from it too, but at least had spells.
The Skald - the predecessor of the Valor Bard, really - managed it pretty well. Trick was the benefits of the aura were kicked off by things the character actually did, and would often mix a continuous benefit with a triggered one, so it stayed interesting. The thing that most frustrated the Skald at my table was that the Aura didn't get bigger at higher levels, at Heroic it was OK, at Epic it was an issue.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Auras are good I think they were just underpowered in 3E as the based them off the 2E Bard.

Buff spells granting a bonus to hit were usually +1 -blesd, aid, prayer, faerie fire, magic weapon etc.

I hear Paladin auras in 5E are good.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The D&D community as a whole really needs to get over this concept: Niche protection is dead.

And lets face it, if you sanded down the Bard, something else would naturally take it's place as the "Do it all" class. Probably the Druid or Cleric.

Edit: To be constructive to the topic, take a look at the Artificer, it's a Half-caster (plus cantrips) that fills the "Rogue" position in exploration, plus a good deal of support.

We don't need a "do it all" class, though... at least, I don't think so. If you want to "do it all", multiclass.

I'll add Artificer to my list for Sunday to look over. Thanks!

{snip}
Great class mechanically feel not so much.
Yeah, that is pretty much my take on it as well.
 

Ashrym

Legend
We don't need a "do it all" class, though... at least, I don't think so. If you want to "do it all", multiclass.

We don't have a "do it all" class at all. This has been pointed out repeatedly. We have a versatile, customizable, general support class that can be decent in a few (not all) areas. However, a jack-of-all-trades was part of the bard theme consistently throughout D&D and has always fallen short of doing it all.

Earlier expertise, another proficiency, and reliable talent put them behind rogues in skills. Evasion and uncanny dodge put them behind rogues in defense. Cunning action puts bards behind rogues in action economy. Sneak attack puts bards behind in damage. Bards are behind rogues in combat and a bit behind them as the skills class. This is mildly ironic because skill benefits are what bards get instead of spell or combat improvements like other classes.

Bards are far beyond most classes in direct combat. They do not have the hit points and armor other classes have and when they lean towards those directions it's still catching up to fall behind. Fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, rogues, monks, and clerics with domains moving towards melee are all beyond bards in combat. A dwarf wizard with shocking grasp is above bards in combat. Bards are about as low end can go given their one poor damage cantrip and light armor and lack of defensive spells.

Magical secrets doesn't exist until 10th level, and true to arcane casters picking up spells outside of the list they count against spells known. That's a long time for what amounts to a small perk because the bard still didn't gain any way to increase the power of those spells and he's still limited enough in options that he has huge opportunity costs. The only way around that is with the lore bard, and continuing to really suck in the combat pillar outside of support.

Bards can pick up medium armor (and heavy by feat if they live through the first few levels likely dumping CHA or starting at a higher level). They can take feats or spells to help with their extra attack after doing so. That builds them up to mediocre damage without other class abilities bolstering their combat (because they get skills and support in the chassis).

The bard can go lore, which gives them more skill focus instead of spell power and the ability to debuff with inspiration so decent, and even pick up eldritch blast plus hex as an example of damage. Again, it's still mediocre in comparison to warlocks, or evokers, or sorcerers using points, or melee damage we see in those other classes. It's an investment to improve and fall short. It also means that lore bard obviously isn't also taking fireball or paladin smites because that's not possible. There are far too many Shrodinger's bards in these discussions where the bard seems to have more secrets than the class gives secrets. On top of that, there is far far too much competition for concentration on the bard list for hex. They'll lose it to a failed check on damage or because buffing / debuffing usually needs concentration.

It doesn't make any sense to pick up a small damage boost with hex and give up the concentration on a more impactful spell. Bards do have some good spells. Those good spells are in the support / control style.

Bards can be good healers. Not life cleric good but good. This requires using the lore bard's extra secrets to pick up 2 out-of-class spells. They can still be decent enough healers but well behind clerics and druids without those 2 secrets at 6th level. Again, that means they are not picking up damage spells, defensive spells, or "poaching" class niche spells. Because that's still Shrodinger's bard logic going on. They cannot do both at the same time. That's one of the reason's they can be decent in multiple areas but any move towards one area is simultaneously preventing moves to another.

A bard does not get revivify or multi-target healing until mass cure. Those do not exist on their list and that keeps them behind. They can rely on heroism (taking away the concentration slot), which incidentally would be very iconic of them for inspiration. Taking healing word, heroism, lesser restoration, mass cure wounds, raise dead, and greater restoration is half their spells known just for healing at that level. That actually leaves them with 6 spells for combat, defense, and utility at a time when sorcerers would have 10 spells to cover those areas.

I want you to think about that and let it sink in. Bards have less spells known for other areas than sorcerers do to try to cover what the sorcerer would because bards are also covering healing and that wears the resources thin. Bards aren't like clerics and druids where there are a plethora of prepped spells so and that stops them from covering too much at once. The sorcerer has more to work with after healing plus metamagic plus bloodlines than enhance magic. On a side note, that's also probably why sorcerers feel like they have plenty of spells known when I play them -- not having spells known given over to healing as I spread thin on a bard feels like I've got plenty at that point on a sorc.

Song of rest is a nice bonus, but it might actually be the only healing the bard even has. If a player wants the bard to do more spells of other types, those spells known have to come from somewhere and that often means dropping healing spells. I have done that (although I added the healer feat because I couldn't give up the expectation of some healing).

Being able to "do everything" means to a degree. That degree is always behind more focused classes for a bard and working on one area is always neglecting another. 5e hasn't actually changed that. Bards have a lot of options but they don't actually get to take them all, and that's what people seem to be missing.

Now if that doesn't feel "right" to you, that's fine. Just because that's how bards are designed in 5e doesn't make them for everyone. I'm giving feedback on your "do everything" comment because that looks like you don't have the experience with the class tbh. They really are just a solid support class (which is what I think bards should be) that can be decent in a few areas of focus.

Hopefully my experience gives insight. :)
 

Zardnaar

Legend
We don't have a "do it all" class at all. This has been pointed out repeatedly. We have a versatile, customizable, general support class that can be decent in a few (not all) areas. However, a jack-of-all-trades was part of the bard theme consistently throughout D&D and has always fallen short of doing it all.

Earlier expertise, another proficiency, and reliable talent put them behind rogues in skills. Evasion and uncanny dodge put them behind rogues in defense. Cunning action puts bards behind rogues in action economy. Sneak attack puts bards behind in damage. Bards are behind rogues in combat and a bit behind them as the skills class. This is mildly ironic because skill benefits are what bards get instead of spell or combat improvements like other classes.

Bards are far beyond most classes in direct combat. They do not have the hit points and armor other classes have and when they lean towards those directions it's still catching up to fall behind. Fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, rogues, monks, and clerics with domains moving towards melee are all beyond bards in combat. A dwarf wizard with shocking grasp is above bards in combat. Bards are about as low end can go given their one poor damage cantrip and light armor and lack of defensive spells.

Magical secrets doesn't exist until 10th level, and true to arcane casters picking up spells outside of the list they count against spells known. That's a long time for what amounts to a small perk because the bard still didn't gain any way to increase the power of those spells and he's still limited enough in options that he has huge opportunity costs. The only way around that is with the lore bard, and continuing to really suck in the combat pillar outside of support.

Bards can pick up medium armor (and heavy by feat if they live through the first few levels likely dumping CHA or starting at a higher level). They can take feats or spells to help with their extra attack after doing so. That builds them up to mediocre damage without other class abilities bolstering their combat (because they get skills and support in the chassis).

The bard can go lore, which gives them more skill focus instead of spell power and the ability to debuff with inspiration so decent, and even pick up eldritch blast plus hex as an example of damage. Again, it's still mediocre in comparison to warlocks, or evokers, or sorcerers using points, or melee damage we see in those other classes. It's an investment to improve and fall short. It also means that lore bard obviously isn't also taking fireball or paladin smites because that's not possible. There are far too many Shrodinger's bards in these discussions where the bard seems to have more secrets than the class gives secrets. On top of that, there is far far too much competition for concentration on the bard list for hex. They'll lose it to a failed check on damage or because buffing / debuffing usually needs concentration.

It doesn't make any sense to pick up a small damage boost with hex and give up the concentration on a more impactful spell. Bards do have some good spells. Those good spells are in the support / control style.

Bards can be good healers. Not life cleric good but good. This requires using the lore bard's extra secrets to pick up 2 out-of-class spells. They can still be decent enough healers but well behind clerics and druids without those 2 secrets at 6th level. Again, that means they are not picking up damage spells, defensive spells, or "poaching" class niche spells. Because that's still Shrodinger's bard logic going on. They cannot do both at the same time. That's one of the reason's they can be decent in multiple areas but any move towards one area is simultaneously preventing moves to another.

A bard does not get revivify or multi-target healing until mass cure. Those do not exist on their list and that keeps them behind. They can rely on heroism (taking away the concentration slot), which incidentally would be very iconic of them for inspiration. Taking healing word, heroism, lesser restoration, mass cure wounds, raise dead, and greater restoration is half their spells known just for healing at that level. That actually leaves them with 6 spells for combat, defense, and utility at a time when sorcerers would have 10 spells to cover those areas.

I want you to think about that and let it sink in. Bards have less spells known for other areas than sorcerers do to try to cover what the sorcerer would because bards are also covering healing and that wears the resources thin. Bards aren't like clerics and druids where there are a plethora of prepped spells so and that stops them from covering too much at once. The sorcerer has more to work with after healing plus metamagic plus bloodlines than enhance magic. On a side note, that's also probably why sorcerers feel like they have plenty of spells known when I play them -- not having spells known given over to healing as I spread thin on a bard feels like I've got plenty at that point on a sorc.

Song of rest is a nice bonus, but it might actually be the only healing the bard even has. If a player wants the bard to do more spells of other types, those spells known have to come from somewhere and that often means dropping healing spells. I have done that (although I added the healer feat because I couldn't give up the expectation of some healing).

Being able to "do everything" means to a degree. That degree is always behind more focused classes for a bard and working on one area is always neglecting another. 5e hasn't actually changed that. Bards have a lot of options but they don't actually get to take them all, and that's what people seem to be missing.

Now if that doesn't feel "right" to you, that's fine. Just because that's how bards are designed in 5e doesn't make them for everyone. I'm giving feedback on your "do everything" comment because that looks like you don't have the experience with the class tbh. They really are just a solid support class (which is what I think bards should be) that can be decent in a few areas of focus.

Hopefully my experience gives insight. :)

Lore bard us the Uber bard, valor bard meh.
 

The only actual difference in the history of D&D is bard were bumped up to 9th level spells one edition later than clerics and druids. Clerics and druids jumped to 9th level spells going into 3e and I thought that was odd at first. After playing a lot of 2e where all bards had 6th level spells and most clerics and druids had 5th level spells unless blessed with extremely high WIS (where they might get 6th level spells or 7th level spells) it was a big jump to 9th level spells for those classes. 3e is the only edition to actually have that big gap comparing bards to clerics/druids to make it the one-off scenario to which people cling. And, as I've said many time, the bard song already made up the difference (they could cast mass suggestion 20 times a day just off songs), and popular bard pre's commonly changed the spells known in a system much like magical secrets. Magical secrets is just a 5e implementation of a common pre ability kept with the class.
On top of this, 2e still had different level and experience point tables for classes, and Bards leveled up much more quickly than Mages for the same amount of XP. In many cases, that meant the Bard often had as many spell slots and spell levels as the Mage in the party. The Mage's advantage of 9th-level spells vs. the Bard's topping out at 6th didn't come into play until beyond the levels most people played at.

Oh and because spells scaled with level back then, and Bards were higher level for the same XP, they were often casting the same spells as Mages better than the Mages were.

So in that sense, Bards were kind of like a full caster even as far back as 2e.
 
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Ashrym

Legend
Lore bard us the Uber bard, valor bard meh.
Lore bards still have all the drawbacks I mentioned. The chassis of the bard gives spells but it enhances skills instead of spells or spellcasting, or combat ability. The tools aren't there to compete with focused classes.

Trying to do cover too much spreads thin too fast because of the spells known compared to clerics, druids, or wizards. It's easy for a cleric or druid to cover healing spells and still have other spells prepped to cover other aspects of the game.

Lore bards also suffer from too much competition for bardic inspiration dice. Cutting words is good but using it loses the opportunity to use the standard options that are also good, or peerless skill. Using peerless skill just cost uses of inspiration or cutting words. Those dice can disappear fast. The 2 spells known don't give enough to focus in multiple areas or change the fact the class chassis doesn't enhance or support addition casting like we see in other casters.

There is no uber bard.
 

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