This will help you give out balanced encounters....
Creature Calculator
Creature Calculator
Tips Needed: Gaming in a Large Group (8+ PCs)
- Thread starter Destan
- Start date
Steel_Wind
Legend
rrealm said:
Thanks for this, but I am curious as to its behind the scenes functions.
In a group of 7 PCs composed of
3PCs - ftr2nd x2, Rngr2nd x1
2PCs - Bard2nd/Rgn1st and Rogue3rd
2PCs- Wizard 4th x2
This is a party with demonstrated power to kick butt even at lower levels.
Throw 8 std CR1 Hobgobbies at em - this should be a fast and furious fight with a lot of dead hobgobbies real fast.
But your encounter chart says "Very Hard" pull out all the stops.
Something's wrong. Is it my understanding of the chart, your chart, or some underlying assumption of a party of 4 in the CR rating for a hobgobbie, or what?
haiiro
First Post
My current group started out as 7 players, and was the largest group I've ever DMed for any length of time. Apart from the many excellent suggestions that have already been made, I have a couple to add:
1. As others have said, keeping track of initiative in clever ways is a must. My approach was to create a laminated chart (based on Negative Zero's old product, Improved Initiative), which is filled out at the beginning of combat. Once we've been through one round, I often put it out for everyone to see; if not, I announce who is on deck based on the chart.
There's plenty of room to move people around as they delay, etc. It's worked really well for the past year.
2. I've run a campaign website for the game from the start, and it's been both fun and useful. I posted guidelines, house rules, available sources and setting info for the players to use in creating characters, and as the game has progressed I've added all sorts of stuff -- campaign journals, maps, etc.
We also use email a lot to schedule sessions, discuss things in the game, and more recently (and successfully) to resolve things like item management between sessions. Even if I wasn't running the site, I'd still do this.
Good luck with it -- running a big group is a challenge, but it's also a lot of fun.
1. As others have said, keeping track of initiative in clever ways is a must. My approach was to create a laminated chart (based on Negative Zero's old product, Improved Initiative), which is filled out at the beginning of combat. Once we've been through one round, I often put it out for everyone to see; if not, I announce who is on deck based on the chart.
There's plenty of room to move people around as they delay, etc. It's worked really well for the past year.
2. I've run a campaign website for the game from the start, and it's been both fun and useful. I posted guidelines, house rules, available sources and setting info for the players to use in creating characters, and as the game has progressed I've added all sorts of stuff -- campaign journals, maps, etc.
We also use email a lot to schedule sessions, discuss things in the game, and more recently (and successfully) to resolve things like item management between sessions. Even if I wasn't running the site, I'd still do this.
Good luck with it -- running a big group is a challenge, but it's also a lot of fun.
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
Concentrating on just one or two players when the party separates? Give the other players specific monsters or NPC personalities to play. Just saying "Fred, you get to play a drunk and happily lecherous guard; Nancy, please play the indecisive innkeep." keeps everyone involved and focused.
Taking turns outside of combat
Regardless of the group size, something I try to do in non-combat situations is to go around the group (we sit around the living room so we don't do the usual table thing) one at a time and ask them what they are doing. This gives the normally shy and quiet types a chance to get their two cents in or accomplish their goals or simply not be overshouted by the louder players.
Thus, when in town, the wizards scribes a few scrolls, while the rogue gathers information about the latest adventure, the fighter gets drunk and starts a bar fight, and the cleric goes and meditates. Each character gets the same amount of "screen time" and nobody gets overshadowed by the Fighter's player loudly stating he's starting a barroom brawl and starts rolling dice before anyone else can say what they were doing.
Q
Regardless of the group size, something I try to do in non-combat situations is to go around the group (we sit around the living room so we don't do the usual table thing) one at a time and ask them what they are doing. This gives the normally shy and quiet types a chance to get their two cents in or accomplish their goals or simply not be overshouted by the louder players.
Thus, when in town, the wizards scribes a few scrolls, while the rogue gathers information about the latest adventure, the fighter gets drunk and starts a bar fight, and the cleric goes and meditates. Each character gets the same amount of "screen time" and nobody gets overshadowed by the Fighter's player loudly stating he's starting a barroom brawl and starts rolling dice before anyone else can say what they were doing.
Q
Here's some more tips:
never randomly accept players. Get to know them. Only invite players you'd enjoy doing other fun activities. Basically people you'd be friends with. Also, do try-ou games. That's a good way to spot players who aren't fun to play with. Scene hogs, rules lawyers, and anti-socials who try to go off and ruin the game.
Use a battle mat and miniatures. Or counters if you can't afford miniatures. The reason isn't because the D&D rules encourage them. It's because it makes it easier for a large group to see what's going on, and to pay attention to. This means, that after a long wait for your turn, you can glance at the table, see the situation, and quickly catch up, if you've dazed off.
Never follow the shorter branch. If a player says, I go off the tunnel while the rest of the party fights the beholder, then keep the focus on the main party. You can get back to the forking loner in a summary of what happens. This keeps the game going, and teaches the player to avoid forking for no purpose. Too many GM's make the mistake of moving the camera to the loner and leaving the majority of the players stuck waiting.
Janx
never randomly accept players. Get to know them. Only invite players you'd enjoy doing other fun activities. Basically people you'd be friends with. Also, do try-ou games. That's a good way to spot players who aren't fun to play with. Scene hogs, rules lawyers, and anti-socials who try to go off and ruin the game.
Use a battle mat and miniatures. Or counters if you can't afford miniatures. The reason isn't because the D&D rules encourage them. It's because it makes it easier for a large group to see what's going on, and to pay attention to. This means, that after a long wait for your turn, you can glance at the table, see the situation, and quickly catch up, if you've dazed off.
Never follow the shorter branch. If a player says, I go off the tunnel while the rest of the party fights the beholder, then keep the focus on the main party. You can get back to the forking loner in a summary of what happens. This keeps the game going, and teaches the player to avoid forking for no purpose. Too many GM's make the mistake of moving the camera to the loner and leaving the majority of the players stuck waiting.
Janx
Destan
Citizen of Val Hor
There's some great ideas littered throughout this thread. You fellas have my thanks. Some of them - such as sitting in the middle of the table instead of the end - are so simple they're brilliant. Heck, I've been DMing 6 guys for years, and that one never really occurred to me. Color me stupid.
I also like the thought of farming out NPCs to PCs, and designating a "rules lawyer" and "initiative recorder". We do some of that, but I think it'll be helpful to define those roles at the outset.
As for doing a "try out" session, I just can't find it in me to do it. I know that I won't be able to tell someone, "Sorry, you're not what we're looking for." I suppose if anything got really, really bad - enough that impacted the fun others were having - I would be forced to do it. But I hope that doesn't happen. I think I've got some great players; I'm much more worried about my role than I am theirs.
Anyway, thanks! I'll let you know how it turns out. Whether you want me to or not.
D
I also like the thought of farming out NPCs to PCs, and designating a "rules lawyer" and "initiative recorder". We do some of that, but I think it'll be helpful to define those roles at the outset.
As for doing a "try out" session, I just can't find it in me to do it. I know that I won't be able to tell someone, "Sorry, you're not what we're looking for." I suppose if anything got really, really bad - enough that impacted the fun others were having - I would be forced to do it. But I hope that doesn't happen. I think I've got some great players; I'm much more worried about my role than I am theirs.
Anyway, thanks! I'll let you know how it turns out. Whether you want me to or not.
D
reanjr
First Post
Destan said:
I've got 8 in my game right now (well, 7, a new one's gonna be there next session, though). It's hell. Fun. But hell.
Some of my suggestions:
Partition the group in your mind. You'll probably find that most players play really closely with certain other players. Either their classes are synergestic (Ranger and Rogue for scouting), they're friends or husband/wife, or they are just sitting next to each other. You can effectively cut the player management in half by pairing them off and treating them as a unit (of course the units might have to change during the game).
Battle with so many people is going to be frustratingly boring in all likelihood. If you have a rules lawyer in your group, make use of her. If something comes up in battle that need to be looked up, ask the rules lawyer. If she doesn't immediately know and it's not overly important, just adjudicate and move on. If it is somewhat important, have someone not directly involved look it up (the player also should have looked it up ahead of time if it was their action that is causing slowdown). Make a note of the rule somewhere so you can look it up later - thoroughly. If anyone has a rule argument, have them remember it or write it down. DM rule sticks until the end of the session when those problems can be looked up and resolved out of game.
If you are OK with being harsh with your players (I am), you can rule that they must know what their action is going to be when their turn comes up or they lose it. Same thing goes for if you are calling out initiative ("Anybody got an 18?... No?... Alrighty, it's the dragon's turn" ... "I went on 18, what happened to my turn?" "You apparently weren't paying attention and lost your turn; you can go next round"). I actually use a different initiative system where characters get multiple turns per round and they are not in a set order. Players tend to pay attention more after their turn is over if their turn might be coming up in another 30 seconds than when they know they are going to have to wait for all the other players and NPCs to go before they get to go again. They lose interest waiting. If you can figure out how to fix this problem, combat will be much better.
Keeping attentive to quiet or inexperienced players is very difficult. Try to consciously think about players in round-robin fashion. Make an effort to address different (and if possible, multiple) people directly when you are describing their surroundings. When you address one person, it makes other players feel that their characters don't have anything to do in the current scene. Try to create an adventure for each of the players. Include some of their background or just make it tailored to their skills. Sometimes rewarding good role-playing with experience or bonuses to skills can bring those players out of their shells as they come to see being outspoken as necessary to effectively advance. Then again, if can backfire and those players won't advance as quickly.
If it becomes necessary to get rid of players, don't worry about. It will work its way out naturally. If the number of players is causing the game to become boring, some players will leave, alleviating the situation.
Destan said:
When I have new potential players that want to join, I tell them they must pass quality control and I meet them at a coffee house for an hour before I ever give them directions to my house. Provided they arn't some fool with an irritating voice, super obese, or look like the type that never showers or washes their hair and they might show up wearing cloaks and daggers, I talk with them about D&D and other games to get a feel for whether they really prefer hack and slash or heavy rp or in between. Provided everything goes ok, I give them directions and we start throwing dice, otherwise, I just tell them it wouldn’t work out.
Steel_Wind said:
It says "Very Hard" because the effective party level is 4.6 and the EL of the 8 hobgoblins is a 7. Although, I would say a more proper EL would be 6 since most hobgoblins have fair to poor equipment. Anyway, the calculator isn't perfect but once you get past level 2 or EL 2, things fan out much better. I use the calculator for my party and their cohorts so I can send a balance of kou-toa and drow at them while they attack an underground stronghold.
After playing with the number of hobgoblins (I made it 6 for the program but I’d still use 8 for the battle) to make it say the EL was 6, the difficulty factor was 1.6 which roughly translates to one or two good blows will need to be healed from the battle. No one should die. If no one is injured, it’s probably because one of the wizards used their highest spell levels to do a mass immobilization to the enemy group. Either way, the party’s amount of available resources is reduced. This “roughly translates to …” is my interpretation of the difficulty factor and the recommended information on encounters in the DMG where it talks about an equal EL should consume X% of party resources. It is no way scientific or based on specialized charts.
Oh, BTW, it's not my calculator and I take no credit for it. I was just providing the link.
Personally I ignore what the "Difficulty" box says because I think the text provided is out of whack from what the "Difficulty Factor" is. But, I do think the "Difficulty Factor" is pretty much on the money. Obviously it can’t be perfect. A group with a lot of fighters is going to have an easier time with a large melee battle than a group of wizards. A battle with skeletons and ghouls are harder without clerics and effortless even with a low level cleric. Just take that into consideration but give the difficulty factor a little credence for your next encounter.
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