To all the other "simulationists" out there...

[mmadsen]

What about the highly trained warrior who didn't notice the rogue and got a blade shoved through his medulla oblongata?

While I certainly don't want to play the highly trained warrior who gets taken out by a lucky shot, I think it's a design flaw for the game to make every highly trained warrior lucky.

I like the idea of Uruk-hai or Imperial Stormtroopers being tough, competent soldiers -- but not fated to survive against the odds.

Oh, but that can't happen in D&D. In D&D, the highly trained warrior notices and sidesteps just in time, every single time, without fail.

Yes, even when the highly trained warrior explicitly fails to notice his assailant, he is guaranteed to defend himself.

 

[DM_Blake]

It's funny..

I say that D&D's rules do not work for the kind of game I want to play, and I get an avalanche of "just house rule it".

Is it really so wrong to seek a system that DOES work for the kind of game I want to play?

That was my point with the OP. I'm tired of house ruling. At some point, it isn't even the same game anymore. So why bother?

I want to play a more realistic game using a more realistic system. Why should I chain myself to D&D and house rule it beyond recognition?

I hear your pain. I really do.

I've tried so many game systems over 30+ years of playing, I don't even dare list them all. Here's some of them: D&D (every edition), Gurps (every edition), Champions, Fantasy Hero, Warhammer FRP, Rolemaster, Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls, Dangerous Journeys, Shadowrun, Traveler, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Twilight 2000, White Wolf's Vampire RPG (the exact name eludes me), Toon, and Amber. Plus two home-made systems that were very good but never saw any professional publication.

I am sure I left a few out.

I've liked something about all of them. I have liked a lot of things about some of them. I have liked most things about a few of them.

But I have never liked everything about any of them.

No matter what the system, we always end up agreeing to change something. Some games, we change a lot, other games we change a little.

Sometimes our changes address "realism" or "simulationism" issues. Sometimes they fix things that are broken (ever had your character die while you're rolling him up in Traveller?). Sometimes our changes fix balance issues.

But we've always had house rules.

The longer we play one system, the longer our list of house rules becomes.

I think the only person who is 100% satisfied with any published game, right off the shelf, is the guy who created that game - everyone else will find something, or many things, they want to change.

Some people play it as is, refuse to houserule, and take the good with the bad. Other people try to fix the bad through house rules. Each to their own.

But I bet nobody but the game's creator truly likes everything, every single rule, in any published game.

OK, maybe a few people who's idea of a perfect game is exactly the same as the guy who created a game - but that's going to be a tiny percentage of gamers.

The rest of us simply find a game that comes close, then we tweak it into something closer as we play.

So, your mileage may vary, but my recommendation would be to lighten up a bit on the "no house rules" restriction. You bought the silly game, you're investing your time and energy into playing it, why not bend it a little to make it even more fun for everyone?

(Caveat: beware of house rules that only work for one or two players, but upset the rest of the group; these probably don't count as tweaking it to make it better for everyone)

 

[Henry]

I understand what Ashrem's getting at, and it isn't an issue with 3.5, it's an issue with all of D&D, which I understand. Heck, I just miss the days of random rolls for hit points for your monsters (which I;sm surprised no one mentioned is another good way of sidestepping the "too tough bell ringer" issue.) but as time has gone on, the lack of verisimilitude gets harder to sidestep -- you just have to customize your game to the level you like.

Me, GURPS' combat gives me heartburn, because the way 3E GURPS is written, even though there IS a simple basic system, it, and all the supplements, have references to the complex system laced throughout, and that complex system slows me down (having to know how much damage is blow-through, determining hit locations, tracking the combats second-by-second, etc.) I played using the complex system ONE TIME, then I played the basic system, couldn't get into it, and went back to customizing my 2nd edition AD&D.

Years later, I have PTGD (Post-Traumatic GURPS Disorder) flashbacks involving Spycraft 2.0 Fortunately, Spycraft is easier to cut out the exceptionally crunchy parts and leave a good cinematic game behind.

 

[GeorgeFields]

I was going to rewrite the D&D Player's Handbook to better satisfy my need for more realism and detail.

In the end, I settled on GURPS.

Interesting. I am going through the exact same situation myself. I've decided (and still plan) to write my own game.

In the meantime, I've been turned on to GURPS. My 4th edition GURPS characters book arrived yesterday. I already have a group a few hours away ready to take me in when I'm ready.

Good luck on the book! If it goes through, let me know what it is. I'll pick it up.

As far as the bell ringer, I would have allowed a coup de grace attempt. He wasn't helpless, but he was unaware of the attack enough the he wasn't even trying to defend against it.
(Apologies if that was mentioned. I opted not to read through 6 pages of posts)

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

So, your mileage may vary, but my recommendation would be to lighten up a bit on the "no house rules" restriction. You bought the silly game, you're investing your time and energy into playing it, why not bend it a little to make it even more fun for everyone?

(Caveat: beware of house rules that only work for one or two players, but upset the rest of the group; these probably don't count as tweaking it to make it better for everyone)

I'm not totally against house rules. I just dropped D&D as my main system when my house rules document hit page 60.

So far I've been using GURPS without having to do any house ruling. Will I in the future? Maybe. But so far so good.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Interesting. I am going through the exact same situation myself. I've decided (and still plan) to write my own game.

In the meantime, I've been turned on to GURPS. My 4th edition GURPS characters book arrived yesterday. I already have a group a few hours away ready to take me in when I'm ready.

Good luck on the book! If it goes through, let me know what it is. I'll pick it up.

Thanks!

My advice is to try not to get overwhelmed. GURPS looks horrificly complex at first glance, but if you take it a step at a time, it isn't so bad.

Once you're through character creation it's smooth sailing from there.

 

[GeorgeFields]

Thanks!

My advice is to try not to get overwhelmed. GURPS looks horrificly complex at first glance, but if you take it a step at a time, it isn't so bad.

Once you're through character creation it's smooth sailing from there.

It doesn't look overwhelming to me. It's got a level of detail that I like. I'd been reading a 3rd edition core book, but stopped when I ordered the 4th edition book. So far, I like what I've been reading.

What other books do you suggest for a full blown fantasy campaign?

 

[Professor Phobos]

Sometimes our changes address "realism" or "simulationism" issues. Sometimes they fix things that are broken (ever had your character die while you're rolling him up in Traveller?). Sometimes our changes fix balance issues.

The trick with Traveller chargen is to treat it as a game in and of itself. Kind of a minigame. It's why making Traveller characters is fun all by itself, even without the prospect of using them.

Like most random chargen systems, it helps to not go into it with a clear idea of what you want, but instead run with whatever you can get.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

It doesn't look overwhelming to me. It's got a level of detail that I like. I'd been reading a 3rd edition core book, but stopped when I ordered the 4th edition book. So far, I like what I've been reading.

What other books do you suggest for a full blown fantasy campaign?

It really depends on your GM. That said, you'll probably need:

GURPS Basic Set Characters
GURPS Basic Set Campaigns (There is a lot of stuff in there for players)
GURPS Magic (If your GM is using the standard spell system.)
GURPS Powers (Great book for helping you understand supernatural abilities, alternate magic systems, psionics, etc.)
GURPS Martial Arts (Adds a ton of combat options. It's not just about oriental styles.)

GURPS Fantasy (Despite the name, isn't really needed.)

 

[DM_Blake]

I'm not totally against house rules. I just dropped D&D as my main system when my house rules document hit page 60.

So far I've been using GURPS without having to do any house ruling. Will I in the future? Maybe. But so far so good.

LOL, my House Rule document is into triple digits...

But to be fair, it also includes a huge section of "combined feats" where I created an xls table of feats and their sources and summaries from over 25 core, splat, and 3rd party books (and some I made up, too).

I would probably be under 100 pages if I took that out.