To all the other "simulationists" out there...

[Baka no Hentai]

I think some of you are misunderstanding the reason I posted the scenerio in the OP.


A 5th level rogue, standing behind a 5th level fighter, cannot kill him in one blow.

In reality he could grab the fighter and cut his throat. He could drive his blade into the base of his skull. He could stab him through the heart. etc.

In D&D, even on a maxed out sneak attack with a critical hit, it is IMPOSSIBLE to bring down the fighter in one hit. It simply can not be done.

This is unrealistic and it can be frustrating to a player. Making it difficult is one thing. Making it IMPOSSIBLE is another.

Unfortunately, theres really no way to fix that without inserting a large amount of imbalance into combat. If an invisible player rogue can systematically one shot a same level fighter in the rules, whats to stop an unseen sniper with a crossbow from putting a bolt between that same rogues eyes later on?

I think that this is one of those things that rightfully was left to DM Fiat in third edition, as there was no realistic approach to both having fifth level hit points AND being able to kill a character in one hit. Each DM would have to decide how exactly he wanted to work it. (I would have likely had the rogue roll to hit against an AC of 10, and if the hit was successful have the guard roll a reflex save or be killed. If the save was successful, he was able to turn or dodge just in time, leaving himself wounded but not quite dead yet.)

 

[Fifth Element]

This is unrealistic and it can be frustrating to a player. Making it difficult is one thing. Making it IMPOSSIBLE is another.

It's not impossible. He just has to render the fighter helpless first, and can then use a coup de grace. Difficult? Sure. Impossible? No.

 

[Bullgrit]

In the OP he was a mook

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Bullgrit

 

[billd91]

I think some of you are misunderstanding the reason I posted the scenerio in the OP.


A 5th level rogue, standing behind a 5th level fighter, cannot kill him in one blow.

In reality he could grab the fighter and cut his throat. He could drive his blade into the base of his skull. He could stab him through the heart. etc.

In D&D, even on a maxed out sneak attack with a critical hit, it is IMPOSSIBLE to bring down the fighter in one hit. It simply can not be done.

This is unrealistic and it can be frustrating to a player. Making it difficult is one thing. Making it IMPOSSIBLE is another.

It's theoretically possible to kill him with one attack in reality. There are certainly cases where it has happened, and probably cases where the attacker has botched his try and merely maimed the target. But let's not kid ourselves. Driving a blade up into the base of the skull is harder than it sounds and it's virtually impossible to stab a sentry through the heart if he's conscious and wearing some kind of torso armor. There's a reason that various special forces soldiers are taught about going for the throat. But even those methods aren't foolproof.

But why not give the guard a break (as you would a PC in that situation)? Perhaps he instinctively felt the rogue's presence without necessarily hearing him and moved enough that the possible killing blow was just an injury. The danger of going with too many possibilities to perform instant kills is that they become weapons to be turned on the PCs as well. You have to be sure that's the kind of game you want, both as a player and as a DM.

 

[Fifth Element]

In reality, the greatest swardsman in the world will die from a blade through the heart, even if a peasent girl is the one that puts it there. D&D cannot handle this.

Untrue. In D&D, the only way to get a blade through an experienced swordsman's heart is when he's helpless (coup de grace). Otherwise he is able to deflect the attack away.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Awesome job!

Out of curiosity, how did you approach magic? One of the reasons I moved away from GURPS for fantasy was there were so many d20 variants and spell-creation systems that it seemed easier than tweaking GURPS Magic or GURPS Powers.

Also, would you mind posting your versions of the other iconics?

Thanks!

Unfortunatly, the other I did aren't on this computer. You might be able to do a search for them over on the SJG official GURPS board. I did a big post of them over there about a year or so ago. Should still be there.

I'd find it for you, but my work filter blocks it.

I've got several versions of magic used by different people througout the world:

The Sorcerous Art - Uses magic as it is described in the Basic Set and GURPS: Magic.

Divine Miracles - Uses the Modular Ability (Cosmic) advantage (with a series of modifiers) to simulate divine intervention. Priests do not know spells. They jsut pray for aid and they may or may not get it.

Magic in the Veins - Purchase a special Unusual Background and you can purchase and build powers as you see fit (within reason).

Communal Magic - See GURPS: Powers. You may buy various powers from the Animal, Plant, Elemental, etc groups.

Psionics - As the Basic Set describes.


With the D&D iconics, I used the Sorcerous Art style for "wizards" and Magic in the Veins for "sorcerers".

I didn't do direct conversions. I more or less built the characters in GURPS based on what their theme instead of converting from D&D, which was itself a way of building the characters based on a theme.

 

[Pale Jackal]

Just sounds like bad DMing to me, rather than a weakness in the rules. What DM would ruin a perfect opportunity for some drama and some PC badassery by making a simple guard a high-level fighter?

Indeed. I don't begrudge someone wanting something different than D&D offers, and D&D surely has its weaknesses, but I don't think this is a good example of where D&D goes wrong.

Being hide-bound by the rules, no matter the system, is a bad thing.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Bullgrit

Mook (mōōk) Pronunciation Key
n. Slang
An insignificant or contemptible person.


Um... no. I'm pretty sure I got it. The guard wasn't a significant character.

 

[Remathilis]

I think some of you are misunderstanding the reason I posted the scenerio in the OP.


A 5th level rogue, standing behind a 5th level fighter, cannot kill him in one blow.

In reality he could grab the fighter and cut his throat. He could drive his blade into the base of his skull. He could stab him through the heart. etc.

In D&D, even on a maxed out sneak attack with a critical hit, it is IMPOSSIBLE to bring down the fighter in one hit. It simply can not be done.

This is unrealistic and it can be frustrating to a player. Making it difficult is one thing. Making it IMPOSSIBLE is another.

Only marginally worse is that a 20th level rogue with twf and haste cannot kill a 20th level wizard in one round of attacks before the mage uses Polar Ray + quickened Magic Missile to turn the rogue into wormfood...

Remathilis "Better make that 19th level rogue now" Eveningwind...

 

[Baka no Hentai]

In reality, the greatest swardsman in the world will die from a blade through the heart, even if a peasent girl is the one that puts it there. D&D cannot handle this.

Ah but thats just it, the question isnt whether a blade through the heart will make the swordsman die, but more what does the peasant girl have to do to get the blade through his heart?

With the way hit points have always worked in D&D, it really is next to impossible to incorporate a rule for the peasant girl to fatally stab the surprised swordsman without making all of D&D combat incredibly luck based.... basically taking combats from being decided over 10+ rounds, to be decided in one or two.

So it is really left up to the DM to determine if the situation is right to allow the peasant girl to do so, if doing so is worthwhile to the overall story, and most importantly if doing so is conducive to the overall fun of the gaming group. If so, the DM allows it. If not, she's going to have to take her chances in normal combat.

Personally, I would never cause a high level PC to die in such a trivial manner regardless of how realistic it might be, thus losing all the months of work the player put into that character for no good reason. I may allow the reverse to happen to an NPC under very specific conditions though. I guess that makes me a decidedly non-simulationist DM when I think about it.