To James Jacobs: A Growing Problem with Dungeon Magazine

takasi said:
The conversion notes are now text only pdfs. There is no layout process necessary to do this. Yes, yes, people are going to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, but those same people have probably never looked at the notes. They are just TEXT. I would love to see the draft vs the final copy, because the text that's actually presented does not look like it needs very much work at all to do. If anyone else disagrees, based solely on the text of the notes alone by all means please prove me wrong.
Know much about producing a professional-looking PDF file, even one that's just text?

James' description of the process still holds. Even though the job of the layout person has been reduced, it's still not a zero-effort process. Eric Boyd and Keith Baker still have to (separately, mind you) write their conversion notes for the Forgotten Realms and Eberron respectively. They still have to be edited, I'm assuming by James Jacobs himself (not that it matters). The still have to be laid out as PDFs, which is non-trivial if you want the damn thing to read well on the screen and print out well. Then they have to be posted to the website, a small but non-trivial effort.

As James said, that's four steps. Four steps involving at least five people (two authors, editor, layout, website) with other jobs - I don't know about Eric, but Keith is a freelancer and works for a computer games company, Dungeon editors have Dungeon to edit, Paizo layout staff have Paizo magazines to lay out, and webmasters have a big website with forums and an online store to maintain.

As a package, it seems like a small task. When you consider the place of this small task in the grand scheme of everything occupying the people involved, you can see why it's not exactly trivial.

Or maybe you can't, which would kind of prove the point about you not knowing what you're talking about.
 

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mhacdebhandia said:
Know much about producing a professional-looking PDF file, even one that's just text?

Yes. I've produced many complex professional newsletters for hundreds of thousands of users (via a government contract) using Pagemaker. It would take me no more than five minutes to put together the recent conversion notes and that's with a very generous padding of my time. The skills required to do the layout are almost non-existent. Does anyone else who develops pdfs disagree?

mhacdebhandia said:
Then they have to be posted to the website, a small but non-trivial effort.

As a professional site developer I would disagree with this. I can't think of a more trivial task than posting a pdf. I can't even think of any legacy systems that would take more than 5 minutes (and that's being extremely generous) to do this. Do any other webmasters disagree?

mhacdebhandia said:
As a package, it seems like a small task. When you consider the place of this small task in the grand scheme of everything occupying the people involved, you can see why it's not exactly trivial.

I have seen all of the users in this process spending their time on other tasks (like posting on these boards) that IMO would take much more time than developing these pdfs. Just an observation. We're looking at best a half an hour of actual work we're waiting on. I have no complaint about delays related to the writing (inspiration takes time) but as I understand it this is generally not the source of the delay.

If anyone disagrees with the actual length of time it would take to make these I would like to continue discussing that aspect of the conversation. Otherwise that's all I have to say.
 

Cthulhudrew said:
OT- I think the clue is that it's not spoken (like a poem) but more melodic (sung) like a sonnet.

Any fiends out there who sing? Evil Harpies or something?

well, Ardat was revealed as the queen of harpies, but i don't think she's likely to come before some of the more significant ones...
 

i think you guys need to let takasi work for you as an intern so he can see first hand what goes into putting everything together. :)
 

BOZ said:
well, Ardat was revealed as the queen of harpies, but i don't think she's likely to come before some of the more significant ones...

Doing a google search of demon, sonnet & D&D I come with the Kraken (after Tennyson's sonnet). Is there a Kraken demon?
 

BOZ said:
i think you guys need to let takasi work for you as an intern so he can see first hand what goes into putting everything together. :)

I'd love to join their WoW guild. The editorial made it sound like they have a lot of fun.
 


Steel_Wind said:
As for some of you making the droll little "Gee...I can do it myself comments"... *Ahem* Climb down off your high horses please.

I'll chime in here to agree. I don't spend money on a pre-prepared adventure so that I can do all the work myself. I want it done for me, because I don't always have time to work out statblocks, figure out tactics, research possible spell lists, etc. I'm a busy guy, but I do like to play some D&D every once in a while. If doing it myself means I get to play half as often, then I'd rather pay some money to increase the amount of gaming I can do.

Not all of us are high school students with tons of free time on our hands. Lots of us have families, jobs, and other responsibilities for which gaming is a restful diversion. If half the time allocated to gaming is spent preparing, that's the sort of thing that drives people like us to take up more "pick-up and go" hobbies like MMORPGs.

Yes, I've been gaming for 30 years too. Yes I can do this myself with a fair bit of work and have done so often in the past. And unlike most of the posters here, yes, I actually do make a decent income from producing D&D encounters and adventures (albeit on the silicon side of the ledger).

See, here's a really good example. Steel_Wind here is a bonafide game designer, and he's got the same time and effort issues that many of the rest of us have. "Get off your high horses" is right. If you naysayers were really serious, you'd eschew Dungeon and Dragon, because you could just write all that material yourselves. For that matter, you wouldn't buy any splatbooks, because you could come up with that stuff yourselves too. So if you're going to drag out the tired rebuttal that we should just do all this modification ourselves, I think you should be making the same demands of yourselves first, or appear as hypocrites.

Furthermore, even if you do play with core-only plus reams of homebrew modifications, that should be an indication only that you should consider yourselves lucky to have all that time on your hands. When I was a teenager I had a lot of time too. I wrote lots of material, fleshed out a campaign setting, and could practically quote from the rulebooks. Then I became an adult, got a life, and had to learn to squeeze in fun stuff where I could. I'd love to have all that leisure time again, but sometimes people just have responsibilities they need to deal with. Should they be excluded from gaming just because they don't have the time to do everything themselves? Of course, the inclusion of these people is part of the reason why Dungeon exists in the first place.

In any event - the editor has spoken with a reasoned response for which I cannot fault him, especially given the stick-in-the-mud responses in this thread which seem aghast at the idea.

I don't see any major difficulties with assigning someone to the task of constructing spell lists for important spellcasters drawn from the Spell Compendium for inclusion in a sidebar. It'll increase the value of that book, increase the value of the module for people with that book, and will take only a small amount of space. I'll voice support for this idea, since it seems like a pretty nice compromise.
 

Nightfall said:
James,

Aw come on! You can trust us! I mean it's not like we're trying to take Dragon away from you. ;)

Seriously I am curious, what would it take to do all that stuff you mentioned to outsource to little ole us? I mean you know us! (Well sort of.) We're trust worthy! (I think...) ;)

*considers shooting a certain annoying poster...but decides against it*
Well, I don't really think anyone could stop us if we decided to do "Alternative Statblock for Wizard on Page 34 of Issue 391" posts, here or on a wiki. Nor do I think they'd want to, since it wouldn't mess with their own "official content" mojo, being decidedly unofficial content. Since many of us get Dungeon early due to having subscribed, it could become a regular community project, where people submit their alternative builds in a thread, a panel reads them over, picks the best one, and edits it. But that takes time, effort, and dedication. If someone's willing to cough up those resources, I'm sure it would be valuable for many Dungeon readers, but it's likely to be a thankless job since:

1. It will be its own reward
2. Guarantee: someone will hate the choices and will loudly and persistently make this known.
 

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