To Kill or Not to Kill (PCs): That is the Question...

Where do you fall on the subject of PC deaths?

  • Let the dice fall where they may! It makes things more exciting and real!

    Votes: 67 55.8%
  • Mostly let the dice fall where they may. If a PC is really unlucky they shouldn't die.

    Votes: 39 32.5%
  • PCs should die if they do something really stupid. otherwise, let's all have fudge and a good time.

    Votes: 10 8.3%
  • Fudge fudge baby! The story relies too much on the PCs originally created.

    Votes: 4 3.3%

Wild Gazebo

Explorer
I should also amend my previous post with:

Sometimes the Awesome Meter demands a die to be tossed in the open, across the table, deliberately in front of the player whose character's life is on the line.

Awesomeness cannot be contained by rules; but, rules can be used to create awesomeness.
 

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korjik

First Post
I play in a campaign with a DM who feels the same, and sometimes forces the results that way. I find it boring when I can see through the veil and realize fudging is happening.

For me as DM, MY perfect fight ends with the players saying, "That was awesome!"

Generally, that involves the players firing on all cylinders, playing their characters well (using their stats and abilities) and doing clever outside the box "Combat as War" stuff midfight, where the PC's were in character, and probably a moment where it seemed like they were all going to die, and then a moment where something great happened and they realized victory was insight.

But I've seen games where a TPK or near TPK can also lead to "That was awesome!"



Yes, but . . . if there's not even the perception of danger, it takes the spice out of the game. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.



Mine also want to "win". Knowing everyone gets a trophy for participation might diminish the satisfaction from a "win".

My guess is in practice, we do just about the same thing . . . I just not comfortable with saying I will "prevent" deaths . . . I'm more comfortable saying I will not seek them and I will give extra chances to avoid them (like a second roll in a situation that means death if they fail, after the first roll has actually failed -- I've called it a "save versus DM" the two times in 30 years I've done it, since that used to be on the back of the AD&D DM's screen -- meaning Save versus Death Magic).

The whole pointlessness of this discussion is what is 'win'. A fight that derails the game, even if the players thought it was awesome would not be a win if it irritated the heck out of me. I am playing the game too. A fight that causes someone to waste time making a character instead of playing is not a win. Wasting half a month of play time because someone died and that has to be fixed somehow is not a win.

On the other hand, with my players, hacking up a bunch of orcs is alot of fun. They dont really need, and in general dont even want, to worry about dying. They dont want every fight to be a right on the edge life or death struggle. Their 'win' is a room full of dead monsters and a bag full of loot.

That dosent mean that there isnt the struggle at all. I save that for climactic stuff. Go up against the BBEG in his evil temple, poke your nose in the lab of the mad Wizard, break into the vault of the Overlord, and at least once you are going to get a fight where you have to pull out all the stops.

Lucky for me, I have very predictable players. Dont get me wrong, my players are predictable cause we have been playing together for nearly 20 years. That means I can have a very light touch with fudging cause I usually know how the players are going to behave. More than half my fudging is more along the lines of 'if this hit isnt a crit, they will have enough surges to go to the next fight and finish the adventure' than of the type 'if I dont have the deathbeasts act stupid they will kill the party in two rounds'. Not only that, but the only TPK I have done was where it was a new campaign and my deathbeasts were a homebrew that the party couldnt damage quickly enough to survive. This may have also made me a bit predictable to my players too, so they know how to survive my fights.

It just comes down to what do the players (including the GM) want. Mine want to kill monsters and loot treasure. They dont want to have to worry much about dying, unless it is a dramatically appropriate moment. That is what I like to run, too. So it works out for us.

That dosent make my way any more or less appropriate or correct than yours. It dosent even mean I wouldnt play your game, or you wouldnt automatically not play mine. It just means that one of the great strengths of an analog RPG is that it is infinitely tailorable to the players involved.
 

korjik

First Post
I should also amend my previous post with:

Sometimes the Awesome Meter demands a die to be tossed in the open, across the table, deliberately in front of the player whose character's life is on the line.

Awesomeness cannot be contained by rules; but, rules can be used to create awesomeness.

dang it, I cant give you another XP!

:D
 

Daztur

Adventurer
As far as the Awesome Meter, if people get to decide stuff based on what their Awesome Meter says and not what the dice say, then EVERYONE should get to use their Awesome Meter, not just the DM. The rules then would all be about whose Awesome Meter to consult for any one particular situation. I love those kinds of story games in which there's whole swaths of the rules for injecting story-logic into the game and having "what would be more awesome, THAT'S what happens!" baked into the rules (FATE etc. etc. etc. etc.). I just don't particularly like having a game that's not really built around that and then have the DM having all of the power to decide ad hoc what would be more awesome and have all of the responsibility for shaping the random-ass events that happen in a session into a story.

Or as the line in "Predator" goes, "If it bleeds, we can kill it."

I've seen the dice do crazy things. I've seen a 4th level character summon a demon lord by defiling his altar (despite knowing the risk) and then proceed to get initiative, get a natural 20 crit, get missed by the demon lord, and keep getting missed and crit'ing back FOUR TIMES IN A ROW until I had the demon lord decide he'd better gate back out. (This was around 1986, in Oriental Adventures AD&D.)

My point is "unkillable" is really just "statistical highly improbable to be overcome", not "automatic unfair death".

If your character gets killed in D&D, most likely some combination of bad luck, poor planning by the PC, or poor tactics by the PC (such as not running away!) has caused it. Saying the DM "caused it" might have an element of truth, but it probably has a large element of whining.

As Gygax said, if you don't like it, go play Candyland. :)

Your character takes a risk every time he wakes up in the morning, drinks a mug of mead, or pisses on Demogorgon's altar while uttering his foes accursed name!

Oh agreed completely. That's just what I'm talking about. The demon popped up because of something that the PC did, they knew the risk and then they got lucky and something awesome happened. I'd take that over a dozen pre-set encounters tuned to just the right challenge level any day. What's very important if you're playing a game in which players can die regularly is to make the players feel that if they died it's because of their own choices/luck not because of the DM being a meanie. Your example about the demon is a perfect illustration of that if the player got killed by it he'd have nobody to blame but himself and would probably laugh about it. He'd probably feel very very different if the DM lead him into that fight and then "threw the demon lord at him."

That's really really vital. I remember one post on this forum talking about whether to fudge if a fight gets too hard and someone saying that they'd had well over a 100 fights in the campaign he was DMing and that he was proud to have planned them out well enough so that only one had been too hard. That left me scratching my head and thinking "how the hell can a DM plan out a session so that you know what each fight will be and how hard it will be before the PCs ever show up? Does what the PCs do during the adventure not make any difference?"

Generally, that involves the players firing on all cylinders, playing their characters well (using their stats and abilities) and doing clever outside the box "Combat as War" stuff midfight, where the PC's were in character, and probably a moment where it seemed like they were all going to die, and then a moment where something great happened and they realized victory was insight.
Exactly, right down to the wire fights are fun (although they can really drag) but I often prefer curb stomps in one direction or another for example:
-The PC having a duel in which they manipulate the choice of weapons and location of the duel to massively favor them so the fight is over pretty much before it begins (the swashbuckler PC made a deal with the big beefy soldier so that one would choose weapons, the other would choose location, the soldier chose "musket" the PC chose "rooftop," it wasn't very long before the soldier failed his balance check and the PC won without doing hardly anything).
-Everything goes wrong with the PC's plan and the PCs are on the edge of their seats just trying to escape.
Now those really get the PC's heart rates pumping and result in high fives and don't get you dragged into round by round hit point attrition (not that long tactical fights are BAD, just that I'd go nuts if most fights went down like that).

In my experience players don't like winning a tough fair fight as much as they like cheating and getting away with it.
 
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Argyle King

Legend
The whole pointlessness of this discussion is what is 'win'. A fight that derails the game, even if the players thought it was awesome would not be a win if it irritated the heck out of me. I am playing the game too. A fight that causes someone to waste time making a character instead of playing is not a win. Wasting half a month of play time because someone died and that has to be fixed somehow is not a win.

On the other hand, with my players, hacking up a bunch of orcs is alot of fun. They dont really need, and in general dont even want, to worry about dying. They dont want every fight to be a right on the edge life or death struggle. Their 'win' is a room full of dead monsters and a bag full of loot.

That dosent mean that there isnt the struggle at all. I save that for climactic stuff. Go up against the BBEG in his evil temple, poke your nose in the lab of the mad Wizard, break into the vault of the Overlord, and at least once you are going to get a fight where you have to pull out all the stops.

Lucky for me, I have very predictable players. Dont get me wrong, my players are predictable cause we have been playing together for nearly 20 years. That means I can have a very light touch with fudging cause I usually know how the players are going to behave. More than half my fudging is more along the lines of 'if this hit isnt a crit, they will have enough surges to go to the next fight and finish the adventure' than of the type 'if I dont have the deathbeasts act stupid they will kill the party in two rounds'. Not only that, but the only TPK I have done was where it was a new campaign and my deathbeasts were a homebrew that the party couldnt damage quickly enough to survive. This may have also made me a bit predictable to my players too, so they know how to survive my fights.

It just comes down to what do the players (including the GM) want. Mine want to kill monsters and loot treasure. They dont want to have to worry much about dying, unless it is a dramatically appropriate moment. That is what I like to run, too. So it works out for us.

That dosent make my way any more or less appropriate or correct than yours. It dosent even mean I wouldnt play your game, or you wouldnt automatically not play mine. It just means that one of the great strengths of an analog RPG is that it is infinitely tailorable to the players involved.

For me personally, I prefer all parts of the campaign to be exciting/climactic/insert-choice-of-word-here. I agree that some fights are (as far as a story arc and consequences are concerned) more heavily weighted with importance. However, I do not like the idea that the rest of the campaign -when you're not interacting with the BBEG- is viewed as unimportant.

For me personally, I think those small battles and small scenes are important. They are important because they are part of the story which has been created by the players. If the players decide to take interest in a certain aspect of the game, I do not feel it is my place as DM to push them back onto a road toward what I -as an out of game entity- feels they should be doing.

None of this is meant to suggest I never nudge the game in a certain direction. However, nudging is not fudging. What I meant by giving a nudge is that I might plant a plot seed. Though, in recent years, I'd say I've even gotten away from that somewhat. I view my role as DM as an out-of-game entity; as such, I prefer that the NPCs, BBEGs, and other moving pieces of the game world to act in a manner which is natural. From those natural movements, I believe plots will naturally grow.

The movements of the player pieces (their characters) will (I believe) also have a hand in how the world and the story is shaped. Sometimes these movements will cross paths with the movements of other pieces. However, it's also perfectly fine if some pieces don't cross each other. I prefer for the world to not remain static when the players are not around.

How this relates to the topic is I'm saying that I do not necessarily believe some encounters are more important than others. From an in-game perspective, some 'pieces' may be more important than others. As far as what's important from an out-of-game perspective, that's something that I prefer to emerge from playing the game. As such, I strongly prefer to not use my power as DM (again, an out-of-game entity in my view) to artificially impact the natural progression of the in-game world more than necessary. As such; as said, I do not feel a need to fudge* through a fight with minions; whether or not that encounter is important isn't entirely up to me.

I feel your way is perfectly fine; if it makes you and your group happy, that is what is important. My views are simply different.


*I have done something similar, but I'm not sure that I'd call it fudging because I did it out in the open. Long story short: the players were obviously going to win a combat, but we ran out of time to complete it during a session. At the next session, we could not remember exactly where we were in initiative and other such details. So, as DM, I allowed the players to decide what happened in a very narrative way. I went to each player around the table and told them to describe one thing; then the next player did the same, and so on. Occasionally, I would call for a die roll (for example, one player described that a hover bike had exploded, so I had some of the nearby players make a roll to avoid damage.)

I felt it was a fun way to get the story moving forward, and the players enjoyed it. If I were going to fudge, I'd prefer to do it out in the open like that and allow the players to participate rather than doing it behind a curtain (DM screen.) I strongly prefer an honest relationship with the players at the table, and I also felt it was more fun to allow the players to be creative rather than have them slog through a fight using die rolls which had little or no meaning.
 

I do not kill characters.

I do not keep characters alive.

Adventuring is a contact sport. Injury and death may result from participation.
As often as I see the "DM as neutral, dispassionate arbiter" claim, I still don't think it really holds water. The DM has far too much influence on the game world and the actions of NPCs to claim impartiality. You may not fudge the die rolls, but you decide on the enemy's strategy and tactics. You may not fudge the results of encounters, but you place the possible encounters in the first place. You may not decide what the characters do but you do make rulings as to what works and what doesn't. Arguing that these things have no effect on the characters' chances of survival is untenable, I think.

"Dm as neutral arbiter" sounds good in theory, but I don't think it can happen in D&D, which requires a great deal of human decision-making to make it work properly.
 

Wild Gazebo

Explorer
I think the disconnect here is really one of distrust rather than play style. Of course, I've been wrong before.
 
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Wild Gazebo

Explorer
As far as the Awesome Meter, if people get to decide stuff based on what their Awesome Meter says and not what the dice say, then EVERYONE should get to use their Awesome Meter, not just the DM. The rules then would all be about whose Awesome Meter to consult for any one particular situation. I love those kinds of story games in which there's whole swaths of the rules for injecting story-logic into the game and having "what would be more awesome, THAT'S what happens!" baked into the rules (FATE etc. etc. etc. etc.). I just don't particularly like having a game that's not really built around that and then have the DM having all of the power to decide ad hoc what would be more awesome and have all of the responsibility for shaping the random-ass events that happen in a session into a story.

This is a matter of scope and authority: I imagine people will choose the groups they are comfortable with. If democratic gaming floats your boat...by all means give it a go.

My Awesome Meter has a discerning palette, is tempered by age, and informed by my friends at the table. People come back due to the success of the game.
 

Argyle King

Legend
As often as I see the "DM as neutral, dispassionate arbiter" claim, I still don't think it really holds water. The DM has far too much influence on the game world and the actions of NPCs to claim impartiality. You may not fudge the die rolls, but you decide on the enemy's strategy and tactics. You may not fudge the results of encounters, but you place the possible encounters in the first place. You may not decide what the characters do but you do make rulings as to what works and what doesn't. Arguing that these things have no effect on the characters' chances of survival is untenable, I think.

"Dm as neutral arbiter" sounds good in theory, but I don't think it can happen in D&D, which requires a great deal of human decision-making to make it work properly.


1) For me personally, I -as GM- do not decide the tactics of the enemy. I put myself in the mid of the enemy and do what they would do based upon their own motivations and goals. I also take into consideration the mental abilities of the enemy. I do not make decisions for nthinking zombies as though they were tactical savants. However, an ancient dragon who has survived for thousands of years is going to make use of strategy and tactics; he's going to use his own physical abilities and the terrain of his lair to his advantage. I might create the world, but -once the world is in motion- it continues in a way which is natural for the pieces of the world (as said previously.)

2) I was not limiting myself to D&D with my answers. D&D is not the only rpg available, and I think it's reasonable to say that it's far from the only rpg played by everyone here at Enworld.

Though, in the context of D&D, I do not necessarily disagree with your assessment. I do feel that D&D (especially the newer editions) are built in such a way that things such as level, wealth by level, and etc are an assumed part of the game. In contrast, not all rpgs even have levels (or classes for that matter.)
 

1) For me personally, I -as GM- do not decide the tactics of the enemy. I put myself in the mid of the enemy and do what they would do based upon their own motivations and goals.
My point is essentially that there is no way to do this without your own biases and perceptions entering into it. There is simply no neutral arbiter of "what they would do." You can consider the specific enemy as much as you like, but your own stuff will always enter into the decisions, at least over the long haul. Just because you decide it's what they would do, doesn't mean other DMs would agree with you. There is not usually a right answer as to what they would do.

I also take into consideration the mental abilities of the enemy. I do not make decisions for nthinking zombies as though they were tactical savants.
Oh, absolutely. Read my comment as "making tactical decisions for intelligent enemies" as needed.

Though, in the context of D&D, I do not necessarily disagree with your assessment. I do feel that D&D (especially the newer editions) are built in such a way that things such as level, wealth by level, and etc are an assumed part of the game. In contrast, not all rpgs even have levels (or classes for that matter.)
Yes, I was certainly thinking in terms of D&D. But even with all the level guidelines etc, DMs still have an enormous influence on how the game goes, including the degree of lethality. At the very least, they have much more influence on it than anyone else at the table (barring suicidal actions by the characters).
 

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