To the Official Folks: How will Wishes affect Feats?

Vaxalon · Jul 26, 2002

Correction: 3 wishes, KD. The first +1 to the attribute takes 1 wish, the second takes 2 wishes.

Otherwise, I'm completely in agreement.

I'd allow the wish to work, but when the character levels up to gain a feat, he's already got it.

Crothian · Jul 26, 2002

Are feats really that powerful? I'd be more world with the PCs wishing for a magical item. If it got abusive, like wishing to gain 10 extra feats then you just have to bring it down. But an extra feat or two is not going to matter much. I've handed out that many bonus feats over the source of a campaign.

So, what's the big issue? Is it that Wish is not able to do this? Is it a balance issue? I understand why people would allow this, but I'm not sure what the other side of the debate holds.

Darkness · Jul 26, 2002

Vaxalon said:
Correction: 3 wishes, KD. The first +1 to the attribute takes 1 wish, the second takes 2 wishes.

...

Unless you cast them in short succession, of course.

Creeperman · Jul 26, 2002

I'd allow it, using the basic mechanics for ability scores. First wish gets you one feat, provided you meet all of the prerequisites for it. If you have additional wishes, you may cast them immediately for more feats. Otherwise, subsequent feats require a number of wishes equal to the number of wished-for feats, plus one.

Finally, you may only gain a number of feats through wishes equal to your character level divided by four, rounded up, with a further maximum of five feats. If you burn wishes for more feats then you are allowed, then you may "bank" the excess feats until you are of sufficient character level, although you must declare which feats you want immediately.

Thus, an seventh-level character who finds a ring of three wishes may burn them all immediately and specify three feats, two of which he gets immediately, the last held until he reaches ninth level. If he wants to wish for a fourth feat later, it will require four wishes, cast in immediate succession, as for an inherent ability bonus.

KarinsDad · Jul 26, 2002

Crothian said:
Are feats really that powerful?

You tell us.

Is it powerful for a Sorcerer to have 12 feats at level 18 instead of 7?

5 more meta-magic feats for a Sorcerer?

2 more feats than an 19th level (same amount of experience) Wizard (who gets bonus feats) who doesn't happen to have the Wish spell?

Sounds powerful to me.

The Sorcerer gave up 25,000 experience to get it. Granted, that's over a levels worth of experience, but 5 (or 4) feats may be worth a level.

But, what if he purchased Wish scrolls as opposed to casting the spell himself? Or, he found a Ring of Wishes? Then he merely gave up cash for a permanent "magic item equivalent" (i.e. hard to lose a feat in the game).

I just think that the game has a certain balance. Whether that balance is adequate or not, I feel it is less adequate if you give the most powerful spell casters in the game (Wizard, Sorcerer, and Cleric) upwards of 5 more feats.

That puts the 17th level Wizard at 9 bonus feats, just like a 17th level Fighter. Personally, I think this lessens the Fighter.

Finally, I think that anything that cannot be lost in the game should not have a mechanism for extra gain either. Feats is one of these. Special abilities is another. A Rogue cannot lose Evasion without special DM rules (unless you are talking level drain in which case everything is fair game). Hence, another character should not be able to gain Evasion without actually taking a character class that gains it. Ditto for feats without gaining the levels or taking a class that gains bonus feats. IMO.

Crothian · Jul 26, 2002

KarinsDad said:
You tell us.

Is it powerful for a Sorcerer to have 12 feats at level 18 instead of 7?

5 more meta-magic feats for a Sorcerer?

2 more feats than an 19th level (same amount of experience) Wizard (who gets bonus feats) who doesn't happen to have the Wish spell?

Then the wizard gets the wish spell and all is even again. Sure, the extra meta magic feats allow for more options but they all have their costs in increasing the spell level of the spell. I think as long as you are allowing this for everyone in the party it is fair. I'm not going to comparre what a PC Wizard can do verse what an NPC Wizard can do becasue they are not even beginning on the equal ground.

Grazzt · Jul 26, 2002

KarinsDad said:
Personally, I take the opposite view of most people here and would not allow wishing for feats.

My reason is simple.

Feats are generally acquired once every three levels. They are rare. They are special. They define a character. They often have built in chains that prevent certain feats from being used in conjuncture with other certain feats for some classes.

Just because WotC and other D20 companies actually have written about 300 feats overall and everyone and his brother wants to try a lot of them out with their characters does not mean that PCs (or NPCs for that matter) should be able to get more than their allotment.

Fighters get no spell casting capability at all. Instead they get feats.

Allowing Wizard, Sorcerers, and Clerics the ability to trade experience for feats lessens the Fighter. IMO. And at 5000 xp, that is less than a third of a level at 17th level. Lower level characters lose more experience than that dying and getting raised and gain nothing for it.

High level spell casters have enough power without giving them more feats. Again, IMO.

Also, it basically takes 2 Wishes to increase an ability score modifier by +1. That results in a 5% increase in ability for certain abilities. In order to balance this, one feat adds 100% ability (i.e. you gain the ability to do something that you could not do). So, if your average +1 ability score modifier affects 10 things (skills, combat abilities, AC, hit points, saves, whatever, and 10 is probably a little high on average), it means that it is equal to a 50% increase in one ability (skill, whatever). Hence, power-wise, it would take 4 or 5 wishes to equal one feat (rough approximation). YMMV.

So, it sounds like power gaming to me. Bad enough that wishes allow ability score increases in the first place.

I agree.

Vaxalon · Jul 26, 2002

Darkness said:
Unless you cast them in short succession, of course.

Even when you cast them in short succession.

Darkness · Jul 26, 2002

Vaxalon said:
Even when you cast them in short succession.

Not if you're playing D&D 3e.

Heh. I guess this is the section that you misunderstood:

PHB, p.273:
A wish can do any one of the following:
...
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wished for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on).
...

Admittedly, the wording can cause confusion...

But in that case, check the prices of the stat-enhancing books in the DMG and you'll see: