ToB query: HD and Initiator level

[Theroc]

Werewolf gives only 2 racial HD. At any rate, you are only 1 IL behind, since LA doesn't count.

If LA counts for nothing, that puts me more than 1 level behind, as those three levels are 2-3 Initiator levels lost.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think what he meant was that there was never any chance LA was going to count towards IL, so that was never up for debate. Thus, since werewolf is only 2 racial HD, whether the DM counts them towards IL or not is only a difference of 1.

Even so, falling behind 1 more IL on top of the LA is pretty crippling, IMO...

 

[Theroc]

Well, the idea I'd had was a Werewolf Warblade PrCing into Warshaper. So, I'd be losing out a bit on Initiator levels anyhow, but from what I've read/heard ToB classes outstrip anything else in terms of melee.

 

[Nifft]

If LA counts for nothing, that puts me more than 1 level behind, as those three levels are 2-3 Initiator levels lost.

Yes, LA is crippling, and it's supposed to be crippling, since it's there to compensate for stuff you can't normally have. I'm not a huge fan of playing LA races (ever).

I'd suggest you consider a Shifter (from Eberron, they get something not unlike hybrid form), or ...

Consider a Changeling (also from Eberron) Warblade / Warshaper 4 (from Complete Warrior). You may want to mix in a Ranger level or two for the requisite skills. Warshaper buys you:
1/ Immunity to crits and stunning (!!!), grow claws (= your hybrid form)
2/ +4 Str, +4 Con when transformed
3/ +5 ft. reach when transformed
4/ Fast Healing 2 when transformed

Cheers, -- N

 

[Theroc]

Yes, LA is crippling, and it's supposed to be crippling, since it's there to compensate for stuff you can't normally have. I'm not a huge fan of playing LA races (ever).

I get it's meant to compensate, but if class levels are better than the bonuses, than it's more of a slap to the idea of being different than a purely balancing mechanism, hence the word crippling, instead of 'fairly balanced'.

I'd suggest you consider a Shifter (from Eberron, they get something not unlike hybrid form), or ...

I like Shifter, except the idea that my shifts are limited in both duration AND number.

Consider a Changeling (also from Eberron) Warblade / Warshaper 4 (from Complete Warrior). You may want to mix in a Ranger level or two for the requisite skills. Warshaper buys you:
1/ Immunity to crits and stunning (!!!), grow claws (= your hybrid form)
2/ +4 Str, +4 Con when transformed
3/ +5 ft. reach when transformed
4/ Fast Healing 2 when transformed

Cheers, -- N

Isn't there some differences of opinion over whether or not the Changeling qualifies for warshaper?

 

[Nifft]

I get it's meant to compensate, but if class levels are better than the bonuses, than it's more of a slap to the idea of being different than a purely balancing mechanism, hence the word crippling, instead of 'fairly balanced'.

It was intended to be balanced, but it wasn't: LA generally sucks. That's got nothing to do with intention. It's just not a good enough mechanic.

Isn't there some differences of opinion over whether or not the Changeling qualifies for warshaper?

Not really. Changeling qualifies per RAW.

There was some debate over whether it was intended to work.

Cheers, -- N

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

There's two basic opinions on Changelings and Warshaper: The right interpretation, and the wrong one.

Changelings are shapechanger subtype, thus they qualify. Period. End of debate. Good night.

I will say the Warshaper requirements are dumb as hell, extremely arbitrary, and out of date with later 3.5 revisions. For example, Druids get in because Wild Shape is explicitly named as an entrance route. When the book was printed, wild shape was like polymorph, so this made sense. Later on, they eratta'd wild shape to function with the alternate form rules. Warshaper says alternate form does not qualify for the class.
When you add in that Warshaper's so ridiculously powerful that any noncaster (kinda telling that it's actually probably a power down even still for a caster to take it) that can enter would be foolish not to...it's a poorly designed class IMO. I suppose the ToB classes are sufficiently powerful for melee types that it isn't a no-brainer to give up on some IL for Warshaper benefits, though...

 

[Nifft]

There's two basic opinions on Changelings and Warshaper: The right interpretation, and the wrong one.

Changelings are shapechanger subtype, thus they qualify. Period. End of debate. Good night.

Yup.

I will say the Warshaper requirements are dumb as hell, extremely arbitrary, and out of date with later 3.5 revisions. For example, Druids get in because Wild Shape is explicitly named as an entrance route. When the book was printed, wild shape was like polymorph, so this made sense. Later on, they eratta'd wild shape to function with the alternate form rules. Warshaper says alternate form does not qualify for the class.
When you add in that Warshaper's so ridiculously powerful that any noncaster (kinda telling that it's actually probably a power down even still for a caster to take it) that can enter would be foolish not to...it's a poorly designed class IMO. I suppose the ToB classes are sufficiently powerful for melee types that it isn't a no-brainer to give up on some IL for Warshaper benefits, though...

Again, yup.

Warshaper can be abused like crazy. It's on you as a player to not abuse it. For this build, though, where he's trying to emulate a hybrid werewolf, it seems to make some sense. If he's using claws as his natural weapon, he's not gaining bonus attacks over what he'd get with just a pair of daggers, and the claws themselves are not particularly powerful.

Now, if he were trying to justify Changeling Barbarian 8 / Warshaper 4, and he was trying to justify swinging around a Mercurial Fullblade + a bonus Bite attack, then I'd feel compelled to throw dice at him. But he's not.

Warshaper is a tool. It can be abused, sure, but it can also be put to some good uses.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Theroc]

Yup.

Again, yup.

Warshaper can be abused like crazy. It's on you as a player to not abuse it. For this build, though, where he's trying to emulate a hybrid werewolf, it seems to make some sense. If he's using claws as his natural weapon, he's not gaining bonus attacks over what he'd get with just a pair of daggers, and the claws themselves are not particularly powerful.

Now, if he were trying to justify Changeling Barbarian 8 / Warshaper 4, and he was trying to justify swinging around a Mercurial Fullblade + a bonus Bite attack, then I'd feel compelled to throw dice at him. But he's not.

Warshaper is a tool. It can be abused, sure, but it can also be put to some good uses.

Cheers, -- N

Of course, the problem is I'll have essentially none of the other traits, so it won't really FEEL like a werewolf...

The other issue is: Would the two claw attacks granted by Warshaper with the Changeling be remotely comparable to other weapons typically used by a warblade/crusader?

Note: I'm in a game where a DM allowed a fighter X/Paladin Y/WarshaperZ(I used a feat to allow MCing between Warshaper and Paladin) So far I haven't done anything insane yet... but yeah.

 

[krupintupple]

For example, an elder elemental warblade5 can get a 9th lv maneuver at cr16. Not sure if it is all that game-breaking, but something to bear in mind.

hmm, that might be troublesome, considering that there's at least two maneuvers i can think of that simply do "+100 damage" either to the next melee attack, or to a crowd around you. one of them involves fire damage, which given, is common, but i'd doubt that an entire group of 15th level PCs are all immune to fire. fire resist 30 maybe, but probably nothing more.