D&D 5E Toll the Chest

[Maxperson]

I think you (and possibly @Maxperson) are reading "notice a threat" as "notice as a threat". The word as isn't there. You can notice a threat without knowing it's a threat. You just need to become aware of whatever the threat is. In this case, it sounds like both the players and the troll are aware of each other, so what you said is not according to me.

How does the portion I bolded not apply to the party seeing the Mimic posing as a chest? Especially since the party is suspicious of it.

That bold portion is also what we have been saying. Notice a threat in 5e = notice a potential threat. You see it, and it has the potential to be a threat.

 

[Maxperson]

Even if it makes a save, it should have a visible effect. I mean, throw a fireball at a Rogue with Evasion. Even if he takes no damage, it's not like he can just stand stock still as if nothing happened.

He may be able to slowly walk away from the explosion, however.

Toll the Dead isn't the same kind of spell as Fireball. It's all or nothing and no movement is required to evade, like a Rogue using Evasion.

 

[Maxperson]

If a DM wants to rule that mental saving throws are somehow not required to have a visible reaction, that's fine, but the rules don't make this distinction. Granted, they don't say that a visible reaction is required either, but since I think everyone describes physical saving throws, I don't see why mental ones get a pass.

For the same reason that you can see someone walking, but usually not thinking.

In fact, I'd rather prefer a world where everyone sees the king wince when someone's attempt to mentally coerce him fails.

And it would depend on the spell for me and the creature involved. A king is a creature that PC races are familiar with as far as possible reactions to mental stimuli. A Mimic not so much. The mind and it's "expression" in response to the save could be completely internal. Something might be happening, but not where the PCs could see it and especially with the Mimic's perfect ability to mimic an object.

 

[Maxperson]

It is because according to False Appearance as long as it remains motionless you cannot suss the mimic just by looking. You might think you've got it sussed, but that's not the same thing.

There has been no claim in this thread of sussing it out by looking. The PC looked at the chest and sussed it out through intuition. The chest felt wrong being in that room like that.

 

[Maxperson]

By rolling a saving throw, even if it succeeds, the players may now be aware that the chest is a creature since only a valid target need make a saving throw. Is it a problem at your table that the players then act on that information and attack?

How would the PC know that the chest had to make a save? Making the save and not having to make a save could, and probably would in this case easily have the same appearance.

 

[Maxperson]

Take the Ready action to respond (attack, cast, whatever) if the chest moves, attacks, etc.

But, when I DM, if the PCs expect something to happen, it is VERY hard to actually get "surprise" on them.

While I would and do allow it, by the rules you can't actually take the Ready Action until after you are in combat and your initiative number comes up, which would be after surprise is determined.

 

[DND_Reborn]

While I would and do allow it, by the rules you can't actually take the Ready Action until after you are in combat and your initiative number comes up, which would be after surprise is determined.

True, but another flaw in the system...

 

[Maxperson]

True, but another flaw in the system...

Which is why I allow it.

 

[Hriston]

How does the portion I bolded not apply to the party seeing the Mimic posing as a chest? Especially since the party is suspicious of it.

Because the threat is a mimic, and False Appearance prevents them from gaining awareness of a mimic.

That bold portion is also what we have been saying. Notice a threat in 5e = notice a potential threat. You see it, and it has the potential to be a threat.

But that would apply to everything. Even the dungeon walls could potentially be a threat, and no one would ever be surprised.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm not sure if it's a flaw in the system- I had a "fun" experience when I allowed people to Ready outside of combat. First, the players were constantly trying to use it to bypass initiative to get first strikes.

Then I started having enemies ready to attack the players. It turned into this weird ready action metagame that favored players who were a little better at selecting triggers than others.

So I finally had to say "ok, that's enough of that".