Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

[castro3nw]

The main thing I still don't get, even after playing w/Bo9S for a while are the school items.. White Raven Crown, et all. They grant knowledge and use of maneuvers, with novice(1-3), scholar(4-6), and master versions(6-9).

With a non-initiator, that's fairly simple... They know a maneuver and can use it 1/encounter.

With an initiator, not sure whether:
a) You just get knowledge of it, and can ready it as any other maneuver.
b) You get knowledge of it, and essentially a free slot with it always readied in that slot. (and can recover it as per usual method)
c) You get knowledge of it, and can use it once/encounter like anyone else.

Option A makes the most sense to me.. But it makes the item really lackluster for any initiator but a swordsage, who would likely be the only one with enough maneuver slots to regularly ready the extra maneuver. Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Nifft]

With an initiator, not sure whether:
a) You just get knowledge of it, and can ready it as any other maneuver.
b) You get knowledge of it, and essentially a free slot with it always readied in that slot. (and can recover it as per usual method)
c) You get knowledge of it, and can use it once/encounter like anyone else.

Option A makes the most sense to me.. But it makes the item really lackluster for any initiator but a swordsage, who would likely be the only one with enough maneuver slots to regularly ready the extra maneuver. Maybe I'm missing something?

I'd go for (a) or (c), wearer's choice -- just as though it were from a Feat which you might have taken before you had Initiator levels, or you might have taken after.

If you'd like to only use the maneuver 1/encounter, that's fine.

If you'd like to ready it as any other maneuver you know, that's fine too.

Since you don't have to wear the item all the time, it's not like it's going to waste an item slot when you don't have the maneuver Readied, right? But when you want to Ready it, you can put on the item and meditate / practice for 5 minutes.

Cheers, -- N

 

[DM_Jeff]

I got invited here when I moaned on the "what I regret letting in my game" thread elsewhere, thank you, this has been a very good read. Glad to see it's not just me. On the other hand I am more convinced that like many rules, these are much more dangerous in the hands of munchkins.

I have seen a warblade in the hands of my intelligent friend, and the campaign was fine.

I have made my own crusader for a mini campaign, and I certainly don't see any overpowering influences.

On the other hand,

I have seen a warblade in the hands of a player that may be interpreting some of the powers wrong, and he's also picked a bunch that are worded very, very poorly in the book leaving way too much room for interpretation.

I have also seen someone who multiclassed the warblade to death to the point where the character, at 8th level, is routinely tackling and taking out CR 12 creatures by herself with narly a scratch. Took one of those WotC races, that is Medium, but "acts as" Large, then took a level is psycic warrior to gain the "enlarge" ability making her HUGE.

She "seems" to have DR 250/- and routinely rolls between 8 and 15 d6 for damage when she attacks.

I have to admit I should be policing these folks more carefully. I just have a regular policy of making sure players in my group don't play anything they don't fully understand, and I think the book leaves too much open to (mis)interpretation.

A good friend and fellow DM remarked how he thinks if anyone took a Bo9S character, he'd forbid that class from multiclasssing. That would no doubt work, but just seems a shame to have to come to that.

-DM Jeff

 

[Rystil Arden]

I got invited here when I moaned on the "what I regret letting in my game" thread elsewhere, thank you, this has been a very good read. Glad to see it's not just me. On the other hand I am more convinced that like many rules, these are much more dangerous in the hands of munchkins.

I have seen a warblade in the hands of my intelligent friend, and the campaign was fine.

I have made my own crusader for a mini campaign, and I certainly don't see any overpowering influences.

On the other hand,

I have seen a warblade in the hands of a player that may be interpreting some of the powers wrong, and he's also picked a bunch that are worded very, very poorly in the book leaving way too much room for interpretation.

I have also seen someone who multiclassed the warblade to death to the point where the character, at 8th level, is routinely tackling and taking out CR 12 creatures by herself with narly a scratch. Took one of those WotC races, that is Medium, but "acts as" Large, then took a level is psycic warrior to gain the "enlarge" ability making her HUGE.

She "seems" to have DR 250/- and routinely rolls between 8 and 15 d6 for damage when she attacks.

I have to admit I should be policing these folks more carefully. I just have a regular policy of making sure players in my group don't play anything they don't fully understand, and I think the book leaves too much open to (mis)interpretation.

A good friend and fellow DM remarked how he thinks if anyone took a Bo9S character, he'd forbid that class from multiclasssing. That would no doubt work, but just seems a shame to have to come to that.

-DM Jeff

Be careful--if she gains the ability to augment that Expansion, she will act as Gargantuan, and if she takes the right Incarnum feat, she can act as Colossal. Then her Greatsword will deal 8d6 Damage on its own, 12d6 with Monkey Grip.

Of course, pretty much none of that is the fault of the Warblade class.

 

[Slaved]

I got invited here when I moaned on the "what I regret letting in my game" thread elsewhere, thank you, this has been a very good read. Glad to see it's not just me. On the other hand I am more convinced that like many rules, these are much more dangerous in the hands of munchkins.

I have seen a warblade in the hands of my intelligent friend, and the campaign was fine.

I have made my own crusader for a mini campaign, and I certainly don't see any overpowering influences.

On the other hand,

I have seen a warblade in the hands of a player that may be interpreting some of the powers wrong, and he's also picked a bunch that are worded very, very poorly in the book leaving way too much room for interpretation.

I have also seen someone who multiclassed the warblade to death to the point where the character, at 8th level, is routinely tackling and taking out CR 12 creatures by herself with narly a scratch. Took one of those WotC races, that is Medium, but "acts as" Large, then took a level is psycic warrior to gain the "enlarge" ability making her HUGE.

She "seems" to have DR 250/- and routinely rolls between 8 and 15 d6 for damage when she attacks.

I have to admit I should be policing these folks more carefully. I just have a regular policy of making sure players in my group don't play anything they don't fully understand, and I think the book leaves too much open to (mis)interpretation.

A good friend and fellow DM remarked how he thinks if anyone took a Bo9S character, he'd forbid that class from multiclasssing. That would no doubt work, but just seems a shame to have to come to that.

-DM Jeff

I would like to see that build but I am not sure how it has anything to do with the Book of Nine Swords other than having a level or two in a class from the book.

It looks like a +1 level adjustment race and 7 class levels that have been multiclassed heavily that probably has 4 to 8 rounds a day of being a larger size category. There might be cheating involved as well.

 

[Arkhandus]

Yeah, that multiclasser seems to be trying to pull the wool over your eyes on the DR part at least.

With the Expansion power, keep in mind that they need an effective manifester level of at least 7 in order to grow from Medium to Huge, and at least ML 9 if they want to augment the duration beyond 1 round per manifester level at the same time. And they don't get all the normal benefits of being Huge, either, just the basic stuff plus a tiny portion of the Str of a Huge critter (and suffering a Dex penalty like one).

A multiclassed psychic warrior is going to run out of power points quickly if they use that trick. If they have a high Wisdom then they could do the trick once per day with 3 levels of psychic warrior and 4 levels of something else plus the Practiced Manifester feat (and they couldn't augment the duration then, for lack of enough effective manifester levels). With 5 levels of psychic warrior and a high Wisdom (and Practiced Manifester plus 4 levels in another class or classes), they could pull off the trick 2 times per day, with the duration augmented to 10 minutes per level as well.

They'd have to be rather higher level as a psychic warrior to do that more than once or twice a day. And opponents can always try running or flying away until the attacker shrinks back to normal size.....

 

[Rystil Arden]

I would like to see that build but I am not sure how it has anything to do with the Book of Nine Swords other than having a level or two in a class from the book.

It looks like a +1 level adjustment race and 7 class levels that have been multiclassed heavily that probably has 4 to 8 rounds a day of being a larger size category. There might be cheating involved as well.

No, it sounds about right except the DR, which DM_Jeff probably exaggerated for emphasis.

With the Expansion power, keep in mind that they need an effective manifester level of at least 7 in order to grow from Medium to Huge, and at least ML 9 if they want to augment the duration beyond 1 round per manifester level at the same time. And they don't get all the normal benefits of being Huge, either, just the basic stuff plus a tiny portion of the Str of a Huge critter (and suffering a Dex penalty like one).

He probably meant that the character became Large, thus acting as Huge due to Powerful Build.

 

[Arkhandus]

I would like to see that build but I am not sure how it has anything to do with the Book of Nine Swords other than having a level or two in a class from the book.

It looks like a +1 level adjustment race and 7 class levels that have been multiclassed heavily that probably has 4 to 8 rounds a day of being a larger size category. There might be cheating involved as well.

1) Probably because the PC couldn't have done that nasty stuff, except for becoming Huge, without martial maneuvers. The PC was obviously a Half-Giant or Goliath, and HGs at least have a level adjustment (I dunno about Goliaths).

2) Yeah, I too figured the player must've been cheating with some item or maneuver to say that they had really high DR. The Expansion power would only have been a 1/day or 2/day trick at best, lasting a handful of rounds.

 

[Slaved]

No, it sounds about right except the DR, which DM_Jeff probably exaggerated for emphasis.

He probably meant that the character became Large, thus acting as Huge due to Powerful Build.

I understand the size manipulation, which is why I mentioned the limited number of rounds a day, but routinely getting 8 - 15 d6 damage per attack is still difficult. Then there is the problem of how long it takes to set this up and how fast the character burns out.

I would like to see the full character though. If it works as stated, without the exageratted damage reduction, then it might be a fun character to play!

 

[Arkhandus]

Depends Rystil. My half-giant swordsage/psychic warrior (that I never quite got to play due to stupid circumstances) was going to use Expansion augmented for 2 size increases, going from Medium to Huge, while counting as Gargantuan for purposes of weapons and such due to Powerful Build. He had Practiced Manifester and high Wisdom, so he could do the trick twice per day, which would deplete his reserve but for a scant few power points.