Tome of Battle - spells for fighters? How does that work?

[Droogie]

Oh, man -- trade full attack for a better/more interesting single attack? As a guy who really does not enjoy rolls #2 and 3 and 4 during his full round of attacks, I find this very, very compelling.

Me too. However, one of their mantras for 4e is "easier, faster, better." Will combat still bog down if all the melee guys are shuffling through their notes just like the spell slingers? Does this just trade one complexity for another?

 

[EricNoah]

I think the fighter types will still have far fewer "schticks" to keep track of. And maybe we're talking about optional things (like feats -- if you're not into resource management or whatever, you don't pick those feats).

 

[WhatGravitas]

Me too. However, one of their mantras for 4e is "easier, faster, better." Will combat still bog down if all the melee guys are shuffling through their notes just like the spell slingers? Does this just trade one complexity for another?

Well, even with ToB that's rarely an issue - you'll only get a handful of proper maneouvres, so it's not much harder than a 1st- or 2nd-level Wizard... and most stuff will never be as complex as a Black Tentacles or similar stuff.

And with 4E, they'll probably stick to an even smaller set, that scales better, than the ToB-maneouvres (which almost never scale), reducing the need for upgraded versions.

Cheers, LT.

 

[blargney the second]

Me too. However, one of their mantras for 4e is "easier, faster, better." Will combat still bog down if all the melee guys are shuffling through their notes just like the spell slingers?

If they do it anything like Bo9S, it won't bog down because you only ever have a handful of maneuvers ready and available at any given time. Even with deciding which strike to use and the occasional rider effect, my mid-level crusader usually resolves his turn faster than the barbarian or fighter. Their multiple attacks are really what slows them down.
-blarg

 

[netnomad]

The other thing you may have to take in to account (if you use Star Wars Sage Ed as a preview for 4th ed) is that everyone only gets one attack per round unless they take feats to change this like two-weapon fighting or multi-attack. Characters get a damage bonus that is half their level to balance the reduction of hits by adding more damage per hit.

Adding maneuvers into the mix will add a lot of variety in what a melee class to do. I can envision tactics like a fighter distracting a monster from a wizard so he can cast a spell or stunning a NPC so a rogue can get a sneak attack on them. This also leads to more teamwork between classes in combat.

I for one am looking forward to what Wotc has come up with.

-NetNomad

 

[Aus_Snow]

jasin, thanks for the explanation.

It seems almost hilariously late to be looking at this book now, but what the heck. I will anyway. The more informed opinion I've come across, the more it's seemed more likely I eventually would.

Nooooo, *I'm* not in denial about 4e.

 

[WhatGravitas]

jasin, thanks for the explanation.

It seems almost hilariously late to be looking at this book now, but what the heck. I will anyway. The more informed opinion I've come across, the more it's seemed more likely I eventually would.

Nooooo, *I'm* not in denial about 4e.

Yeah, go get it. Even if you dislike the flavour (you can always tone it down... and please ignore most of the artwork, it's all glowing swords and fists, even if the description says otherwise), mechanics-wise it's more than interesting.

Even if you're just looking at it from a designer's point of view.


Cheers, LT.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike.

I simply like that manoeuvre, not just because it puts the enemy into a world of pain, but mainly because of the name. Too bad the final enemy we fought wasn't named Bill!


As for the Tome of Battle: It rocks. Let me run down the basics:

Martial Adepts use manoeuvres. Those manoeuvres have levels, just like spells, from 1st to 9th, and you gain them at the levels a wizard would get spells of those levels (But the good part is, levels in other classes count half, so a Swordsage 5/Fighter 10 that gets another Swordsage level, he counts as Swordsage 11). Most are extraordinary, but some of the more... mystic ones are supernatural. You get all the manoeuvres back after a fight. There's 4 kinds of manoeuvres:

Stances: Not quite manoeuvres, since you select them apart from your manoevures (so you know x manoeuvres and y stances). Unless there's something saying otherwise, you always have one stance active (though one of the classes - unless I'm mistaken, it's the Warblade - gets to have two of them at once at 20th level), and you can switch them as a swift action. They grant benefits ranging from scent over extra reach up to damage reduction.

Strikes: Those are to actively attack things. Most are standard actions, some are full round actions. They usually include an attack. Some include a charge or a full attack. The effects range from bonus damage in many forms (from +1d6 to +100) to extra attacks or negative effects on the enemy to fire attacks to lots of other things.

Boosts: What the name suggests. They boost you in some way - your attacks do fire damage, you become invisible, you can attack more often, you get rend... They're swift actions to pull off.

Counters: Immediate actions to react to danger. Some let you become ethereal, others give you bonuses to attacks or saves.


Martial Adepts: There are three classes that use blade magic. Besides the usual stuff like different HD and attack bonuses, they all have access to different disciplines (there are nine of them, all with a different theme to them) and different ways to use their blade magic:

Warblades: Quite devastating. They get d12, full BAB, strong Fort, all martial weapons and all armour (except tower shields, I think). They get their int to lots of things and can use fighter feats (but their effective fighter level is -2). They don't get to use that many different manoeuvres, but they can get them all back with a swift action followed by an attack (which can't be a manoeuvre).

Crusaders: A lot of paladin in them. Their way to get manoeuvres is the least dependable, since those you can use are determined randomly. They can also delay some damage, storing it in a buffer for a round. While their buffer is filled, they get bonuses to attack and damage.

Swordsages: Very monky. May only use light armours, don't have strong BAB like the others, but get Wis to AC and also to damage while using strikes from their favourite discipline. They get a lot more manoeuvres than the others, and get access to the mystic stuff (especially the fire attacks of Desert Wind and the Ninja/Assassin stuff of Shadow Hand), but they can only get back one manoeuvre at a time, as a full action (though they do get them all back after a fight).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Oh, and for the reference: I played a drow swordsage from levels 1 to 20, using Desert Wind and Shadow Hand. Sneaky death in the dark shaking hands with fiery destruction has its appeal (especially the menoevure where you run around an area and then all you encircled bursts into flame.). Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike was, of course, the most powerful of his abilities. If you exchange desert wind for diamond mind, you have a decent ninja/assassin. I can see stuff like this making its way to the rogue's abilities.

I am also playing Gestalt Kineticist/Warblade with Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. Diamond mind with its teachings of fighting with the mind as well as with the sword, and Iron heart with pure fighting prowess and resilience make for a good pure fighter type and I can totally see it going to the fighter's list.

Tiger claw would work wonders for two-weapon fighting, and rangers will probably get stuff like this. White Raven doesn't improve you yourself, giving power to your comrades instead, so the leader types, especially any warlord worth his salt will get something like that. Paladins will probably be enhanced by devoted spirit powers, replaceing smite wholesale.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

"Spell like" in that they're limited use and have names.

Not "spell like" in that they're all magical and sparkly.

It's a great system, although easy to misunderstand if you've never seen it and are going on out of context quotes.

Cheers, -- N

Actually, quite a few of them are all magical and sparkly.

For example: Blistering Flourish, Burning Blade, Burning Brand, Death Mark, Distracting Ember, Dragon's Flame, Fan the Flames, Fiery Assault, Fire Riposte, Firesnake, Flame's Blessing, Hatchling's Flame, Holocaust Cloak, Inferno Blade, Inferno Blast, Leaping Flame, Lingering Inferno, Ring of Fire, Rising Phoenix, Salamander Charge, Searing Blade, Searing Charge, Wyrm's Flame, Aura of Triumph, Aura of Tyranny, Castigating Strike, Crusader's Strike, Greater Divine Surge, Doom Charge, Immortal Fortitude, Law Bearer, Martial Spirit, Radiant Charge, Rallying Strike, Revitalizing Strike, Strike of Righteous Vitality, Tide of Chaos, Iron Heart Endurance, Iron Heart Surge, Ballista Throw, Soaring Throw, Balance on the Sky, Child of Shadow, Clinging Shadow Strike, Cloak of Deception, Dance of the Spider, Enervating Shadow Strike, Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, Ghost Blade, Hand of Death, Obscuring Shadow Veil, One With Shadow, Shadow Blade Technique, Shadow Blink, Shadow Garrote, Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Noose, Shadow Stride, Stalker in the Night, Step of the Dancing Moth, Strength Draining Strike, Adamantine Bones, Earthstrike Quake, Iron Bones, Roots of the Mountain, Stone Bones, Hunter's Sense, Leaping Dragon Stance, and perhaps White Raven Tactics, but only if it is abused.

We have healing, elemental damage, resistances, dispels, other abjuration effects, save-or-suck, alignment effects, flight, teleportation, and a host of other magical abilities. Many are even described as Supernatural effects, and therefore would not function in an antimagic field. Strangely, most of them are not Supernatural, even if they let you do things like walk on air or become incorporeal.

In addition to this, many of those I left out are described as having obvious magical effects--crackling auras, magic zephyrs, etc. Some of them, like Aura of Perfect Order, are magical mostly because of the way they're described, or (like this example) have descriptors, but I left them off because they could easily be turned into mundane abilities with only a few tweaks. When described as Supernatural, I included them. I also left off a few borderline cases, like Foehammer.

Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven were pretty good sources of abilities that don't come across as magical, although abilities like Hearing The Air and Supreme Blade Parry are pushing it a bit. I can also see how someone might flip through the first school, Desert Wind, which is designed to produce fire-breathing gishes, and come away from the book with the idea that it's designed to make magical fighters.

Also, they use the same format that spells and powers use, with entries for level, range, effect, etc.