Tome of Battle - spells for fighters? How does that work?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Good to hear!

I've been meaning to give the thing a closer look one of these days. It's comments like these from people I've seen previously posting coherent thoughts, that nudge me a little closer each time.

And well, I'm not too surprised to hear that "duelists" (in particular) and "knights" are built with greater ease than when using core only. . .,or several other alternatives even, perhaps.

But the "barbarian". . . how does that one work out, all ToBed?

The way I read it, they actually set up each "school" to take on a particular role for a martial combatant. Desert Wind is for fighter/mages, Iron Heart is swordsmastery/swashbuckling, Devoted Spirit is paladin-like healing and smiting effects, Shadow Hand is rogue-ish, etc.

Certainly food for thought when you consider it's probably a dry run at 4E, and that there's been some time between its release and now to figure out what worked and what didn't.

 

[Nifft]

Actually, quite a few of them are all magical and sparkly.

You misread me then. Here's a re-phrase: Not all of them are magical and sparkly. Now does it make sense?

Cheers, -- N

PS: You list many things that don't actually have any magic or sparkle, though your first couple of lines of maneuvers are accurate. Would you like me to correct your list?

It'd be easier to just lay it out this way:

Flashy Magic: Desert Wind (most), Devoted Spirit (some)
Stealthy Magic: Shadow Hand (most)

 

[Connorsrpg]

I do not have Bo9S.

But I would love to see more options in the PHB for other classes, such as the fighter.

More unique talents (ala Star Wars Saga) that are class-based, not just open to everyone (such as feats). In combination this would be great.

I mean for those players that love fighters and other non-casters there SHOULD be more in the PHB for them. They should not have to purchase all these splat books. How much of the curent PHB is devoted to spell descriptions? And that may get worse with 30 character levels (though I am sure it won;t and they will trim spells). My point being that other classes deverve an expanded list of cool powers/things to do. (Not magical powers).

C

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

You misread me then. Here's a re-phrase: Not all of them are magical and sparkly. Now does it make sense?

Cheers, -- N

PS: You list many things that don't actually have any magic or sparkle, though your first couple of lines of maneuvers are accurate. Would you like me to correct your list?

It'd be easier to just lay it out this way:

Flashy Magic: Desert Wind (most), Devoted Spirit (some)
Stealthy Magic: Shadow Hand (most)

Well, certainly, some of the powers don't explode with sparkles, but they do allow you to do fairly impossible things, such as throw an opponent 60 feet. Also, as I pointed out, some of the manoeuvres would, in my opinion, make perfectly fine mundane abilities, but they list them as Supernatural so I left them in the list.

I still don't think it's wrong to characterize Bo9S as a book of magic wuxia superpowers for martial characters. I actually kind of like that. I also think that if they stripped out all the things that are impossible without magic, it would make a great book of plain old tactical combat manoeuvres. Either way, it's a good book, but I think that as it stands it's a bit of a departure for core D&D to take from the look and feel of fantasy combat. I'm expecting more Legolas and Aragorn than Li Mu Bai and Lo Xiao Hu.

 

[Nifft]

Well, certainly, some of the powers don't explode with sparkles, but they do allow you to do fairly impossible things, such as throw an opponent 60 feet. Also, as I pointed out, some of the manoeuvres would, in my opinion, make perfectly fine mundane abilities, but they list them as Supernatural so I left them in the list.

Okay, so let's look at Iron Heart Surge (which made your list).
- No visible effect.
- Not listed as Supernatural.

Show me the magic sparkles, please.

I still don't think it's wrong to characterize Bo9S as a book of magic wuxia superpowers for martial characters.

I'd prefer to characterize Bo9S as a book with wuxia superpowers, rather than a book of them.

I agree that the book could easily be used to create a flashy wuxia character. (And that such things are fun.)

I strongly disagree that the book can ONLY be used to create those kind of characters.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Okay, so let's look at Iron Heart Surge (which made your list).
- No visible effect.
- Not listed as Supernatural.

Show me the magic sparkles, please.

It duplicates dispel magic, but without the need to roll for success. No sparkles, but it's certainly a page cribbed from the party Abjurer. I was deliberately including effects that duplicate spells, which seemed like a reasonable plan given that the complaint is that the abilities are too much like spells.

I'd prefer to characterize Bo9S as a book with wuxia superpowers, rather than a book of them.

I agree that the book could easily be used to create a flashy wuxia character. (And that such things are fun.)

I strongly disagree that the book can ONLY be used to create those kind of characters.

Cheers, -- N

Oh, sure. But we also tend to think of core D&D as being part of the "swords and sorcery" genre. Nothing stops me from making characters and running a campaign that only involves swords, and has no sorcery. I can do that by choosing to only use the fighter, rogue, and barbarian. However, it seems a bit weird to suggest that despite the fact that D&D can be played without sorcery, D&D isn't also supposed to be about sorcery. Likewise, Bo9S is a book of wuxia from which you can choose to take the expert swordsmasters, leaving behind the wire-fu firebreathing ninjas. That doesn't mean that Bo9S isn't also supposed to be about those ninjas.

My only point here is that it's unsurprising that people look at Bo9S and think it's about Chinese pulp action films. It was clearly designed to evoke that reaction. I think it's silly that fans of the book try to sweep that under the carpet as though it were an embarrassing secret. It is what it is, and it's pretty good at doing it.

 

[Nifft]

So... if the spell jump gives a bonus to Jump checks, then anything else which gives a bonus is "magical and sparkley" because it just "duplicates a spell"? I don't think that's a fair basis for assessment, even when it's technically accurate.

By that logic, Barbarians have a free longstrider in effect at all times. Oops, there goes one of the three remaining non-magical classes!

- - -

It duplicates dispel magic, but without the need to roll for success.

Dispel magic will remove a ghoul's paralysis? Cool! (I'm sure you see my point. Would you like to concede it, or must I beat it out step by step?)

Oh, sure. But we also tend to think of core D&D as being part of the "swords and sorcery" genre. Nothing stops me from making characters and running a campaign that only involves swords, and has no sorcery. I can do that by choosing to only use the fighter, rogue, and barbarian.

AND MANY PEOPLE DO JUST THAT.

Low-magic gritty games are a popular genre.

Swing by House Rules and poke around a bit.

However, it seems a bit weird to suggest that despite the fact that D&D can be played without sorcery, D&D isn't also supposed to be about sorcery. Likewise, Bo9S is a book of wuxia from which you can choose to take the expert swordsmasters, leaving behind the wire-fu firebreathing ninjas. That doesn't mean that Bo9S isn't also supposed to be about those ninjas.

Now that's different. Also about I can happily accept, because it's true.

I suspect that the distinction between "all about" and "also about" is all we're really arguing about.

My only point here is that it's unsurprising that people look at Bo9S and think it's about Chinese pulp action films. It was clearly designed to evoke that reaction. I think it's silly that fans of the book try to sweep that under the carpet as though it were an embarrassing secret. It is what it is, and it's pretty good at doing it.

All I want is for people to see the tools for what they are.

ToB:Bo9S is an excellent resource for wuxia themed characters. (I'm not sure if you're trying to lump me in with these embarrassed supporters you bring up... I'm just repeating what I've already said in an earlier post.)

ToB:Bo9S is also an excellent resource for non wuxia characters.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

So... if the spell jump gives a bonus to Jump checks, then anything else which gives a bonus is "magical and sparkley" because it just "duplicates a spell"? I don't think that's a fair basis for assessment, even when it's technically accurate.

By that logic, Barbarians have a free longstrider in effect at all times. Oops, there goes one of the three remaining non-magical classes!

Well, if something gives a +20 bonus to Jump checks, sure. You might notice that of the group of manoeuvres that allow you to chuck a character across a room, I included the ones that allow you to throw said opponent 20 feet or more automatically, and didn't include the ones that allow you to throw someone only about 10 feet or so. I drew the line arbitrarily where I thought it went from "expert martial artist" to "superhuman strength". I tried to err on the side of excluding manoeuvres from my list, so while a power might allow you, on a good roll, to chuck an orc 30 feet, I still excluded it because the base distance was only 10.

As for longstrider, I would apply the same logic, and assume that the spell is duplicating a mundane effect. If a Bo9S manoeuvre appeared that gave a +10 bonus to movement (and there may be one--I can't remember), it would probably have not made my list since there is already a non-magical way to get that ability. Prior to the appearance of this particular item, there was no non-magical way to dispel magic, so the appearance of a new power that dispels magic is duplicating a spell effect.

And on top of this, you've singled out one somewhat questionable item from a list of dozens. It hardly collapses my house of cards.

Dispel magic will remove a ghoul's paralysis? Cool! (I'm sure you see my point. Would you like to concede it, or must I beat it out step by step?)

Well, it seems to me that you're just saying that it's better than Dispel Magic, because it also cures status conditions. That's fine. I tried to downplay the fact that it was, strictly speaking, better than the spell it duplicates, but if you want to point that out, go ahead.

AND MANY PEOPLE DO JUST THAT.

Low-magic gritty games are a popular genre.

Swing by House Rules and poke around a bit.

I'm aware that this is an option. There are, as I'm sure you're aware, entire published d20 games dedicated to such an undertaking, some of which I have played. That doesn't speak to the point I was making, which is that the assumption behind the PHB is swords and sorcery. The whole package. Which is a way of illustrating by analogy that the whole package of Bo9S includes wuxia. It was designed to support that genre, although you can strip all the hocus pocus out and play without it, just as you can strip the hocus pocus out of the PHB and play low-magic.

ToB:Bo9S is an excellent resource for wuxia themed characters. (I'm not sure if you're trying to lump me in with these embarrassed supporters you bring up... I'm just repeating what I've already said in an earlier post.)

Not necessarily. But I do notice that the Bo9S crowd get their backs up when someone points out that all the manoeuvres are named as though by the cast of Naruto. I don't really understand why this is. I happen to like that sort of thing.

 

[FireLance]

Well, it seems to me that you're just saying that it's better than Dispel Magic, because it also cures status conditions. That's fine. I tried to downplay the fact that it was, strictly speaking, better than the spell it duplicates, but if you want to point that out, go ahead.

Actually, I see Iron Heart Surge as more of a souped-up Slippery Mind. Of course, I would play Iron Heart Surge as more of a negative status and targeted spell removal maneuver than something that duplicates dispel magic, so that it removes fear effects, paralysis, slow, charm, etc., but it won't bring down a solid fog.

 

[Nifft]

As for longstrider, I would apply the same logic, and assume that the spell is duplicating a mundane effect. If a Bo9S manoeuvre appeared that gave a +10 bonus to movement (and there may be one--I can't remember), it would probably have not made my list since there is already a non-magical way to get that ability.

So something that duplicates a non-magical feat or class ability is officially not sparkley?

And on top of this, you've singled out one somewhat questionable item from a list of dozens. It hardly collapses my house of cards.

Well, I had to start somewhere. So I picked an obvious one. But if I can't even get you to see the obvious one, there's not much point in discussing the others, is there?

Well, it seems to me that you're just saying that it's better than Dispel Magic, because it also cures status conditions. That's fine. I tried to downplay the fact that it was, strictly speaking, better than the spell it duplicates, but if you want to point that out, go ahead.

Is that really what you think I said? I'll clarify:

What I'm saying is it's different from dispel magic. As it, one does not merely duplicate the effect of the other.

There are things dispel magic can do which Iron Heart Surge cannot do. And vice versa. Thus, they are different. (As in, non-duplicate.)

I'm aware that this is an option.

Oh good! That was easy.

I do notice that the Bo9S crowd get their backs up when someone points out that all the manoeuvres are named as though by the cast of Naruto. I don't really understand why this is.

Last year the dismissive comment of choice was "it's just a videogame". This year's dismissive comment of choice is "it's too anime".

You can see this in comments in General, but more in the 4th Edition forum.

(However, I still question why you keep bringing this up in this particular discussion.)

Cheers, -- N