Tome of Horrors and Repeat Monsters

Gez said:
Demonic Knight ((sort-of) Death Knight from the Monster Manual 2)

Worse than duplicated, this one is rather unfortunately named if you are looking for a classic 1e Greyhawk feel, because there were Demonic Knights in greyhawk in 1e, and they weren't death knights.


Giant, Forest ((sort-of) Giant, Wood from Monster Manual 2)

No. The forest giant in the MM2 is more an update of the 2e jungle giant than the voadkyn/wood giant.


Taer (Unapproachable East)
Troll, Ice (Unapproachable East)
Juju Zombie (Unapproachable East)
Yellow Musk Creeper (May be in Fiend Folio)

I think I would generally excuse anything in an FR specific supplement that came out AFTER the ToH.

(For that matter, I am still a bit miffed that they put arguably core creatures like Abishai and Genasi in MoF... BID)
 

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I keep hearing this in this thread.

Does anyone know this first hand and have any sort of proof?

Or are lots of people getting indignent over a rumor?


the Jester said:
Well, again I'll state that what I find most annoying about this is the violation of the gentlemen's agreement. What's it say about the integrity of WotC?
 


overlapping

the overlapping doesnt bother me. I use 2 diferent varietys of witch in my game and the variety IMO is a good thing. Plain and simple not all witches are the same or have access to the same spells or even cast them in the same way. Likewise not all monsters are the same. if a unique monster is printed in 2 sources and its different. then simply choose which one to use or combine the powers taking the ones you as a DM want from both and make your own version. Variety IS the spice of life afterall!
 

Gez said:
Overlapping monsters (probably not exhaustive, as I type that from memory, and I'll not list unique monsters, namely fiendlords like Orcus, Geryon, Juiblex, and co.):

Demonic Knight ((sort-of) Death Knight from the Monster Manual 2)

Well if I were running Greyhawk I would use the Template found in the MMII (far cooler) that was originally published in Living Greyhawk Journal.

As for Orcus and

Shadow Demon (Book of Vile Darkness)

I think that it is cool that the BoVD orcus is smaller and smarter than the ToH orcus. But when you look at it they are about the same power in the end. I think it is cool that I can pick one that is more to my style. The same goes for the shadow demon.

I don't see it as overlap but rather variety. It sure makes it hard for a player to look it up and learn about it.

As for the agreement, If I recall it was WotC being graceful to Necromancer that got you the ToH. WotC could have said hell no. But they did not.

Also, what about the Hecuva? The hecuva template was written by Rich Baker a year before and appeared in the Dungeon #86 adventure "Rana Mor" by Rich Baker. So who was is in charge of making sure the product did not overlap again?

Be happy you have the ToH, I know I am. As far as we know there were cetain monsters WotC said Scott couldn't do and there were certain monsters Scott insisted on doing. They worked it out, its ok. WotC was gracious Scott was cool, what more could you want from Necromancer and WotC? Nobody is breaking an agreement. ToH while not an official product does have WotCs blessing. And yeah theres some overlap, but the stats are way different. Get over it and be happy you live in a world where you have to choose between which Orcus you want and which Shadow demon is best for your campaign. Why in the Bloated Demons name would you want it any other way? God people confound me somtimes. Be happy, gamers never had it so good. Sheesh...

Aaron
 
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One comment for you users of both books. I used "groaning spirit" and the BOVD Shadow Demon. Let me say that the groaning spirit is REALLY not a CR 7 creature...though I could be wrong since it was 1/2 7th and 1/2 6 and half... Still Wil save DC 17 or die... Does some damage. As for the BoVD Shadow Demon, that thing can be a MAJOR party-killer, even you go frontal assault. Daming Darkness, plus it's Darkness bonuses...damn powerful for a CR 8 creature that's only slightly incorporeal...
 

To my knowledge even products published by SSS overlap. ToH had the Shadow Demon and Denizens of Darkness had the Shadow Fiend. Which are the same monster, except that the names are different since the later name was used in 1st used in 2e Ravenloft.
 

Psion said:
(For that matter, I am still a bit miffed that they put arguably core creatures like Abishai and Genasi in MoF... BID)

psion, i'm amazed. isn't this the same attitude as the 'if it ain't official WotC, then it ain'ty in my game' attitude that we were discussing in another thread a couple of weeks ago?
 

Oh, myself, I wasn't complaining. I'll probably consider some of the overlaps (like banshee & groaning spirit, or both shadow demons) to be "lesser" and "greater" versions... Same thing for death and demonic knights. (Actually, since death knight is a template, it could be applied on a demonic knight, couldn't it ?).

Other overlaps don't bother me in the slightiest, because I don't plan on using either version at all (no use for giants in the wood).

In theory, I would prefer overlaps to be reprints of the same, for the sake of consistency, but even intra-WotC this isn't made (compare the Genasi in Monsters of Faerûn to those in the FRCS); and sometimes a new variant is better liked (for example, I prefer the Seas of Blood Leviathan to the MM2 one).

In fact, if there are things that irk me in the MM2, it's rather that it has enforced the stupid "beast have Int score of 1 or 2" (what the point of having both Animal and Beast, then ? A simple "beast have Int score below 6" would have obsoleted much less material, beginning with the Monster Manual 1 !); and the unexplainable policy about player options. There's less than half a dozen ECL below 5, in the usable range; and plentiful unplayable critters like avolakia (!) or Loxo (!!) with ECLs, I even saw an ECL above 30 (!!!), yet no ECL for more reasonnable creatures like sylph or, why not, boggle or nimblewrights. That's be like providing an ECL for the Rast and the Tarrasque, but not for the Azer in the MM1.

Also, there's a note about using fire bat as improved familiar, but none for other decent candidats like ash rat, grimalkin or phase wasp.

That and silly CRs (fiendwurm is CR 18, not 28. Compare the challenge posed by a fiendwurm to a party, and that posed by a solar (CR 19)...).
 

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