Tome of Horrors and Repeat Monsters

Nightfall · Jan 22, 2003

Blame me.

I put out the word of mouth.

blackshirt5 · Jan 22, 2003

Dude, Every DM I know around my area has a copy of the Tome of Horrors! It's actually the book I prefer(and not just because it's got the piercer entry).

Grazzt · Jan 23, 2003

Gez said:
Overlapping monsters (probably not exhaustive, as I type that from memory, and I'll not list unique monsters, namely fiendlords like Orcus, Geryon, Juiblex, and co.):

Blood Hawk (May be in Fiend Folio)
Dark Creeper/Dark Stalker/Skulk: a "dark skulker" is mentionned for the Fiend Folio, and it can as well be something new as just a mistake from the part of the "In the Work" articles and relate to one of these three critters.
Demonic Knight ((sort-of) Death Knight from the Monster Manual 2)
False Spider, Solifugid & Pedipalp (City of the Spider Queen Web Enhancement)
Giant, Forest ((sort-of) Giant, Wood from Monster Manual 2)
Giant, Sand ((sort-of) Giant, Sun from Monster Manual 2)
Groaning Spirit ((sort-of) Banshee from Monster Manual 2)
Lurker Above (City of the Spider Queen Web Enhancement)
Shadow Demon (Book of Vile Darkness)
Taer (Unapproachable East)
Troll, Ice (Unapproachable East)
Juju Zombie (Unapproachable East)
Yellow Musk Creeper (May be in Fiend Folio)
Yeti (Oriental Adventures)

Well- lemme chime in and say that when we did the ToH, overlap meant (as has been mentioned in this thread previously) overlap with EXISTING products, not future stuff, like the UE, FF, etc.

I didn't know about the City of the Spider Queen enhancement for example, but once again, I don't think it was out when the final manuscript went off to the printer (sometime late Aug or early Sept last year, if I recall).

The Groaning Spirit was a last minute addition because a few of us didnt like the idea of a 26 HD banshee in the ELH. So, we took the 1e groaning spirit (MM) and there ya go...

Same for Geryon, Pazuzu. Those guys just recently popped up on WotC's site as a web enhancement.

Anyway, overlap is inevitable to an extent with d20 and the OGL. It happens. But, it does allow players/DMs to pick and choose which version of which monster they prefer.

Hell- whip out an overlapped monster on the players sometime. Once they fight something and think they have its tactics or numbers down, throw the "alternate" version at them and keep them guessing.

MythandLore · Jan 23, 2003

Grazzt said:
Hell- whip out an overlapped monster on the players sometime. Once they fight something and think they have its tactics or numbers down, throw the "alternate" version at them and keep them guessing.

Cool!

the Jester · Jan 23, 2003

I guess I just wish that Wizards had tried harder to avoid reconverting the stuff you guys did, but oh well.

MerricB · Jan 23, 2003

The more overlap the better, actually.

When you have players that memorise monster stats, then having two versions of a banshee can be lots of fun.

Tome of Horrors is great, especially for the OGL people. A pity mine is falling apart after less than a week, but I'll get some replacement glue one of these days. (I can't be bothered sending it back to be replaced - not from Australia, and I'd prefer Scott and Clark to make a profit on this book).

Cheers!

Olive · Jan 23, 2003

Grazzt said:
Well- lemme chime in and say that when we did the ToH, overlap meant (as has been mentioned in this thread previously) overlap with EXISTING products, not future stuff, like the UE, FF, etc.

I'm not positive, but I do have a very clear recolection of you saying somthing along the lines of 'we've seen the FF, and there's no overlap there either' at some point Scott.

I'm not to worried about the monster overlap, but I do think that the extent of it was pretty seriously misrepresented by you guys. That may be WotC's fault, but the fact that you're not complaining about the overlap makes me think that you over stated you agreement with them in the first place.

BOZ · Jan 23, 2003

olive, i do remember that vague reference too. of course, as i've said before, it's more than possible that either WotC changed it up, or there was a miscommunication somewhere along the lines.

Darrin Drader · Jan 23, 2003

Overlap is actually a very good thing in my opinion. When you introduce a monster, your players should be able to poke it and prod it a bit during combat to figure out some of its special abilities (assuming they haven't already checked out all the stats in the MM). With duplication, the players see the same monster in front of them, but this time the monster may behave much differently, which can lead to all sorts of interesting role playing opportunities. I say bring on the duplicates!

edit: I just noticed that Geryon was released in Tome of Horrors and just released to the WotC website as a web-extra for the BoVD. I'm not sure I like the idea of duplicates on paragons and unique creatures, but I'm not getting bent out of shape about it. If I use the creature I'll use whichever version stands the best chance against the PCs.