Tome of Magic - Shadowcaster

[Flashback35]

I was considering creating a shadowcaster from the Tome of Magic. What are your thoughts on this class?


If this has been posted before, my apologies.

 

[Piratecat]

Hey, welcome!

My impression is that they have a lot of flavor, but they're a little weak. Mind you, I haven't played one yet.

 

[Psion]

I did start a thread to this effect in the rules forum; people had some things to say there. You might want to take a look.

To sum up my impressions (which were largely confirmed/agreed with in the thread the rules forum), they strike me as weak, especially at low level. There is no way a shadowcaster could stand in for a wizard or sorcerer in a party under 5th level or so, and doesn't offer much to replace its lack of punch and staying power.

 

[Mouseferatu]

To sum up my impressions (which were largely confirmed/agreed with in the thread the rules forum), they strike me as weak, especially at low level. There is no way a shadowcaster could stand in for a wizard or sorcerer in a party under 5th level or so, and doesn't offer much to replace its lack of punch and staying power.

Well, as the designer of the class, let me just say...

You may be right.

I like the shadowcaster, for the most part. And it's important to note that they really aren't meant to stand in for the wizard or sorcerer; the shadowcaster is a "5th class," like the bard or the martial.

That said, it sounds like you've actually played the final version more than I have. If you think it's weak, even as a 5th class, I respect that opinion, even if I'm not 100% certain I agree with it. If you don't mind my asking, what do you feel the class lacks to bring it up to par?

 

[Psion]

That said, it sounds like you've actually played the final version more than I have. If you think it's weak, even as a 5th class, I respect that opinion, even if I'm not 100% certain I agree with it. If you don't mind my asking, what do you feel the class lacks to bring it up to par?

Actually, I haven't. Which is why I started a thread asking for actual experiences over on the rules forum.

Er, guess I should dig it up: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=162849

But, the reason I started the thread was I was looking at the shadowcaster, and it seemed to me that:
- it didn't get many known mysteries
- it didn't get many mysteries per day
- it seemed like the most potent ability it could use a low level to contribute to a combat was a fundamental which really wasn't stacking up to the likes of burning hands, magic missile, color spray, and sleep.

And I was sort of left wondering what was there to fill the gap and wasn't seeing anything.

It seemed like the most expedient thing to do was maybe boost the mysteries per day up at lower level, but I was worried that might make them too potent once those mysteries become spell like or supernatural.

So, I haven't researched a solution greatly, but that was my impression.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Well, as the designer of the class, let me just say...

You may be right.

I like the shadowcaster, for the most part. And it's important to note that they really aren't meant to stand in for the wizard or sorcerer; the shadowcaster is a "5th class," like the bard or the martial.

That said, it sounds like you've actually played the final version more than I have. If you think it's weak, even as a 5th class, I respect that opinion, even if I'm not 100% certain I agree with it. If you don't mind my asking, what do you feel the class lacks to bring it up to par?

Hmm, you created it? So are you Matthew Serneet, Ari Marmell, David Noonan or Robert J. Schwalb or another unlisted on the cover? Just wondering cause it is always nice to hear from the creators mouth.

I don't have too much to comment on as I have only paged through it in the store. I do plan on going back to the store and giving it a better look over though. At first glance it is a bit confusing and time consuming to get a grasp of cause you are forced to read everything, not just a page or two on the highlights of the class. Also, it seems that each type of class needs its own meta-magic feats gears towards pact/shadow/truemane abilities rather than say empower spell feats. That can be discouraging to others to try it out as they can't readily pick a favored PrC class.

I did page through all of the different PrC and it does look like you can combine a few different type of regular spell caster with some of the base class, which is nice, but again, you can't really dual up on certain feats so that in and of itself makes it a bit weaker.

As to the base classes, I will have to devote a good amount of time to give you an honest critique of them since there is a lot to absorb. On the surface, it doesn't seem like you really get that much at higher levels, but I have made inquiries on another thread about what classes people liked and Truenamer or Binder keeps coming up, so perhaps I am missing something.

I wasn't really going to write all of the above, what I really wanted to know is what you meant by it being a '5th class?'

 

[Mouseferatu]

Hmm... It's true that, at low levels, the shadowcaster doesn't get a lot of mysteries per day. But his fundamentals average a little more potent than, say, cantrips. And as soon as the shadowcaster gains Initiate mysteries, his Apprentice mysteries double in quantity. At everything but low levels, he can keep up with the spells per day of many other classes.

Again, not necessarily arguing your conclusions. I'd love to play a shadowcaster long-term myself, but I haven't had the chance to do so as of yet. But I think it's more effective than you may be giving it credit for.

Still, I'll definitely check out the other thread. Thanks for the link.

 

[Psion]

Hmm, you created it? So are you Matthew Serneet, Ari Marmell, David Noonan or Robert J. Schwalb or another unlisted on the cover?

Check his signature. He's Ari.

 

[Psion]

Again, not necessarily arguing your conclusions. I'd love to play a shadowcaster long-term myself, but I haven't had the chance to do so as of yet. But I think it's more effective than you may be giving it credit for.

Like I said, when I posted that thread I was hoping for some actual experiences. Looking it back over, I don't think I got any. I know sometimes some things are easy to miss for those who don't play them.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Hmm, you created it? So are you Matthew Serneet, Ari Marmell, David Noonan or Robert J. Schwalb or another unlisted on the cover? Just wondering cause it is always nice to hear from the creators mouth.

Ari. Nice to meet you.

I wasn't really going to write all of the above, what I really wanted to know is what you meant by it being a '5th class?'

Well, the "average" party (assuming such an animal exists) often consists of one character to fill each of the primary adventuring niches. That is, you likely have one warrior-type (fighter, barbarian, etc.), one arcanist (wizard, sorcerer), one divine caster (cleric, druid), and one rogue type (rogue). This isn't a requirement or a rule, of course, but it's sort of the default assumption.

Certain other classes can fill those roles, but are actually more effective in parties of more than four. For instance, if you add a bard to the above list, he can either stand in as backup for one of the primary classes, or he can do his own thing and play to his own strengths.

That's where I see the shadowcaster. With the right choice of mysteries, he can serve as a scout or a rogue. With a slightly different choice, he can function as a "blaster." He may not be as good at either as a true rogue or sorcerer, but he can accomplish either function.

That's what I mean by a "5th character." Someone who may not fill any of the primary niches as well as a standard class, but who can instead fill multiple niches at need.