Too old for the first time?

[Geron Raveneye]

Too old? Dunno...I used to say that the average of being older is that you only have to keep up, the rest has to catch up. A bit silly of course...who would want to catch up on the fantasy literature such an old fart as I used to read.

Like Count Mouseferatu, I started with the Red Box and went through most iterations of D&D/AD&D since then, along with a few others (Shadowrun and L5R as the strongest contenders ). I've witnessed a lot of different playstyles and players, and I think I can get along with most of them.

I love Avatar - The Last Airbender, and when I watched Advent Children and saw the scene where Cloud jumps after that flying monster, I thought "Damn, that's how epic-level jumps look like...not flying, but damn close." I enjoy the alchemy in Full Metal Alchemist, and the summoning of monsters in 12 Kingdoms. I'm a lot less up to date on PC/video games, since my system here is 5 years old and somehow the new stuff for PC doesn't really pull me in either.

The question for me is not whether D&D should be able to emulate all the new stuff, or all the old stuff...it's what is at the CORE of D&D. Everything else can (and should) be included in the game where it fits (yep, I didn't really like the monk as a PHB class in 3E either...Caine as wandering shaolin monk wasn't THAT archetypical ). And for me, D&D doesn't include Airbenders, Alchemists or Advent Children in the core assumptions. That's all there is. As an option? Gladly. Especially if it's well done. I'm open for a lot of new stuff...but on the other hand, I'm a bit stuck in my assumptions of D&D.

On the other hand, I have this weird philosophy that says "As long as it would fit in the Known World without major trouble, I'll try it." Dragon Hunters floating islands? Would fit into Floating Ar of Alphatia. Ninja Tortles...errr, yeah. Eastern-style elementalists? Maybe around Ochalea, as a special brand of elemental magic. And so on...I could even see the Elemental Vortex as a special meeting place where the Elemental Planes meet the Sphere of Entropy and generate a portal plane to it called the Abyss. Orcus and Demogorgon are in there already anyway.

 

[The Little Raven]

D&D should be molding, rather than chasing, the tastes of its audience, now just as it did in the 70s and 80s.

Um, D&D chased what was popular in fantasy and science fiction back in the 1970s and 1980s. It didn't create anything new, it took a bit from every popular fantasy work at the time, as well as popular historical things (like the Song of Roland), and incorporated those pieces into D&D. That's why we have Jack Vance-styled wizards, Aragorn-clone two-weapon wielding rangers, Charlemagne-inspired paladins, Song of Roland clerics, and monks based loosely on that dude from Kung Fu.

D&D has always followed popular fantasy.

 

[Zogmo]

I'm the target audience. I'm 42. I invest heavily in the game and WotC makes good money off me. That's the target audience they want.

The people making 4e love the game and are doing their best to make the game something they would love to play.

I've seen D&D change tons over the years since it began and it's always gotten better.

1e was the best because it's all there was.
2e was an improvement on the game (but then got run into the ground).
3e was better again and 3.5e was a good upgrade too.
4e is looking to me to be a good sophisticated refinement of what's gone before.
But I will wait and see before jumping ship.

The bottom line is this. You really don't know what it's going to be like. Your getting all worked up and ready to hate it and you haven't a real clue what's it is yet. Bit's and pieces mean nothing without the rest of the game to hold it all together.


I believe that the attitudes we see on these boards really just reflects the differences in people in general. Some people grow and expand their horizons and change with the times. Some people's taste in music and style and fun in general gets locked in place at some point in their lives and when they notice the entertainment business still moving forward and evolving as it always has they feel left behind, out of touch and slighted by something they cared about.

I don't mean this as an insult. It's just the way things are. It's all a part of getting older and dealing with change.

Take a breather and give it a chance.

 

[T. Foster]

Um, D&D chased what was popular in fantasy and science fiction back in the 1970s and 1980s. It didn't create anything new, it took a bit from every popular fantasy work at the time, as well as popular historical things (like the Song of Roland), and incorporated those pieces into D&D. That's why we have Jack Vance-styled wizards, Aragorn-clone two-weapon wielding rangers, Charlemagne-inspired paladins, Song of Roland clerics, and monks based loosely on that dude from Kung Fu.

D&D has always followed popular fantasy.

Not really. What was popular in fantasy in the 70s was fifth-rate Conan knock-offs (Brak the Barbarian), Tolkien knock-offs (Sword of Shanarra), John Norman's Gor novels, and Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. D&D ignored all of those and went instead with an idiosyncratic mix of (mostly) old stuff that Gygax liked -- Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber, Robert Howard, A. Merritt, de Camp & Pratt, etc. None of these were bestsellers, even in the fantasy genre, in the mid-late 70s; much of it was 30+ years old and several of the authors were long-dead. Tim Kask (original editor of The Dragon) has talked about how they went out of their way to include new and reprinted work from the "masters" of swords & sorcery -- Leiber, de Camp & Pratt, Gardner Fox, etc. -- in their early issues because they wanted as many fans of the game as possible to be exposed to this stuff. If they were merely chasing after what was already popular this wouldn't have been necessary. That these authors (except for REH*) are thought of as "canonical" nowadays is by and large a testament to the influence of D&D. Even Michael Moorcock has been quoted (by Gary Gygax, admittedly...) as saying that D&D was responsible for doubling his sales.

That list of "inspirational reading" in the back of the AD&D DMG is by no means a list of either then-contemporary bestsellers or a comprehensive catalog of the fantasy genre (or even the swords & sorcery subgenre) -- it's a specifically targeted list of "what Gygax likes" which even then was as distinctive for what wasn't included as for what was.

*lest someone take offense: I'm not saying that REH isn't considered canonical, I'm saying that he'd be considered canonical even without D&D

 

[Davelozzi]

That's why we have...Aragorn-clone two-weapon wielding rangers

Does Aragorn ever wield two weapons? I thought that came later (possibly from Drizzt, though I'm not certain exactly).

 

[BlueBlackRed]

Dangit ENWorld and your logical thoughts and debates!

I utterly hate the anime 'DragonballZ-ification' of D&D, but your arguments above have shown me the need for it.

I prefer the good old western European chivalry sword-n-sorcery D&D, but I guess in order to attract the next generation of gamers we have to adapt.

And when those gamers have joined our ranks, I will kill them and take their stuff.

 

[comrade raoul]

Everyone one of us likes almost everything we know about 4E. And none of us feel that it's moving away from "our kind" of fantasy at all.

I just want to emphasize here that I don't mean to assume anything like authoritative knowledge of 4e--I'm basing my response on informally formed impressions. They seem common enough to be worth airing, and it's interesting for me to think through them publicly, but my hopes of being pleasantly surprised aren't particularly dim.

 

[DaveMage]

You know what I really think it is? Conan d20.

I haven't looked at Conan d20. What sets it apart?

 

[Exen Trik]

anime 'DragonballZ-ification' of D&D

What? Did I miss the introduction of a 'days per encounter' mechanic or something?

 

[Jhulae]

I'm also going to chime in with the "I'm 30 and I think I'm the target audience".

Almost everything I've seen so far in the previews says "Oh, hell yes! About time!" to me. I'm *so* sick of Vancian style magic, for one. SoD effects for another.

What I'm seeing now is more of an "Earthdawn" feel for the game, and that for me, is 100% awesome.