Tougher Monsters ~ overcoming SR & Good Saves

[Caliban]

Where did this rule come from?

DS

The core rulebooks. Either the handle animal skill in the PHB, or the animal type in the MM. I don't have time to look up the exact reference right now.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Yeah, but they are animals, and so won't attack unnatural creatures unless you spend your action pushing them with handle Animal.

That's quite a stretch.

Summon Nature's Ally I:
This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Requiring the Handle Animal skill for the above seems inappropriate, IMO. With an animal companion or an animal befriended with wild empathy, maybe. But not with a spell that specifically summons an animal to fight for you.

 

[Caliban]

That's quite a stretch.

Summon Nature's Ally I:
This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Requiring the Handle Animal skill for the above seems inappropriate, IMO. With an animal companion or an animal befriended with wild empathy, maybe. But not with a spell that specifically summons an animal to fight for you.

*shrug* I disagree, and so do most of the judges I've seen in the RPGA. It attacks to the best of it's ability, but it's still an animal, and animals have problems with unnatural creatures. That's why the elementals are on the list.

 

[tricky_bob]

If that is so, where does it say that Elementals WILL attack unnatural creatures?

I've looked in the MM (animal type in Glosary and animal section) and PHB (summoning spell entries), there is no mention that Animals will not attack unnatural enemies.

 

[MarkB]

I know exactly what encounter you are talking about, here was what happened to me. I play a Warmage.

1. Cast Wall of Fire (ring) as a defense for the party (useless)
2. Prepared to cast an orb of acid at anything coming in the wall (never saw anything)
3. Cast Fire Shield (useless)
4. Was grappled by a barbed devil as it charged through the wall of flames
5. Escaped the gapple long enough to try a Prismatic Ray on the barbed devil which failed to work
6. Died

DS

This is why, as a wizard or sorcerer, I tend to steer clear of "save-and-nothing" spells if possible these days. I figure a spell ought to at least do something to its target, even if it's a minor penalty like being Dazzled or Shaken.

I'm hoping that if/when 4th Edition comes out, the majority of spells which allow saves will still have at least some effect even on a successful save.

 

[Caliban]

If that is so, where does it say that Elementals WILL attack unnatural creatures?

I've looked in the MM (animal type in Glosary and animal section) and PHB (summoning spell entries), there is no mention that Animals will not attack unnatural enemies.

The Handle Animal skill in the PHB, under the Attack Trick.

 

[MarkB]

The Handle Animal skill in the PHB, under the Attack Trick.

Which tells you what an animal will normally attack when directed with the Attack trick, not what it will attack when it is a summoned creature.

 

[moritheil]

I'm participating in the Age of Worms campaign and now that the PC's have reached level 10/11, the monsters are obviously getting harder.

Firstly by having SR ~ with forethought and planning you can prepare for this with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and even Third Eye Penetrate (mic) all of which grant +2 bonuses to overcoming spell resistance.

That's one way. The more efficient way is to be a cleric with DSP.

Secondly by having higher Save bonuses ~ this is where I'm a little stumped. Other than Spell Focus type Feats that only add 1 to your DC's, for only one school, and spending a ton of cash pumping your save DC stat mod, there seems little can be done about Monsters with high save bonuses negating your spells regardless of how well you can overcome their SR. Am I missing something?

See BoED for some spells that work over evil outsiders even if they make their saves.

 

[tricky_bob]

The Handle Animal skill in the PHB, under the Attack Trick.

That has absolutely nothing to do with Summoned creatures. The spell says they attack your enemies to the best of their abilities. Where does it say refer to Handle Animal if you summon an Animal?

Also Caliban, where is the answer to my question? If Animals wont attack Devils where does it say this and where does it say Elementals will??

If the rules you say exist, then please indicate where?

 

[Caliban]

Which tells you what an animal will normally attack when directed with the Attack trick, not what it will attack when it is a summoned creature.

I just don't think that summoned animal have different abilities than non-summoned animals.

I don't see where the summon spell makes that distinction. You summon an animal, that will attack to the best of it's ability, and animals normally won't attack unnatural creatures, no matter what their ability is.

If you want something that does, summon an elemental creature instead, or use your handle animal skill to push it.