Tougher Monsters ~ overcoming SR & Good Saves

[Caliban]

That has absolutely nothing to do with Summoned creatures. The spell says they attack your enemies to the best of their abilities. Where does it say refer to Handle Animal if you summon an Animal?

Also Caliban, where is the answer to my question? If Animals wont attack Devils where does it say this and where does it say Elementals will??

If the rules you say exist, then please indicate where?

I really don't feel like playing the question game.

 

[MarkB]

I just don't think that summoned animal have different abilities than non-summoned animals.

I don't see where the summon spell makes that distinction. You summon an animal, that will attack to the best of it's ability, and animals normally won't attack unnatural creatures, no matter what their ability is.

Yes - because they're reluctant to do so. But summoned creatures are under a degree of compulsion that leaves no room for reluctance.

 

[Caliban]

Yes - because they're reluctant to do so. But summoned creatures are under a degree of compulsion that leaves no room for reluctance.

Sorry, I don't see where it says that.

I've told you the section of the rules that I base this on, you say that doesn't apply.
You've told me the section of the rules that you base yours on, and I say that I don't think it applies.

*shrug* We don't agree and I don't think we will be able to change each others minds.

 

[MarkB]

Sorry, I don't see where it says that.

I've told you the section of the rules that I base this on, you say that doesn't apply.
You've told me the section of the rules that you base yours on, and I say that I don't think it applies.

*shrug* We don't agree and I don't think we will be able to change each others minds.

The Handle Animal skill acknowledges that animals can be persuaded to attack unnatural creatures, so it's clearly a matter of willingness, not ability.

Summoned creatures obey their summoner absolutely, and default to attacking his enemies if no orders are forthcoming, so willingness is not a factor for them.

 

[Caliban]

The Handle Animal skill acknowledges that animals can be persuaded to attack unnatural creatures, so it's clearly a matter of willingness, not ability.

Summoned creatures obey their summoner absolutely, and default to attacking his enemies if no orders are forthcoming, so willingness is not a factor for them.

You're just repeating yourself, not quoting new rules or bringing new arguements.

I'm not going to repeat myself again, so just refer to my previous posts.

 

[shilsen]

Personally, I think Caliban is wrong here.

But, just to play devil's advocate, the PHB does say "Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands" (pg. 172).

 

[BlackSeed_Vash]

"Hey Dire Wolves I just summoned. Go jump in that pool of lava over there, I want to see how quickly it destroys flesh..."
*Dire Wolves look at summoner and stay where they are.

I think the line shilsen quoted is ment to prevent players from using summoned monsters in stupid or 'unnatual' ways.

"Hey shark I just summoned. Swim up to shore and attack that guy 10 feet up the beach."
*Skark "blinks" at the summoner's order.

 

[Nail]

But, just to play devil's advocate, the PHB does say "Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands" (pg. 172).

That quote's just a bit out of context, shilsen. It's talking about all conjuration spells, not just [summoning] spells.

Specific text over-rides general text. The Summon Nature's Ally spell says:

This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

The spell does not call out any limitations on targets (animals won't attack undead, for example), and it fact it does quite the opposite (see yellow text).

It has no choice in the matter. There's no need to convince it.

 

[lukelightning]

Just use orbs. Easy touch attack to hit, no save, no sr

Not so easy if you don't have precise shot.

 

[Nail]

Not so easy if you don't have precise shot.

I'll be the first to admit it: Soft cover rules and firing into melee rules are often overlooked in my game.

I suspect either (or both!) are overlooked in other games as well.