Toughness - How many hit points to make it worthwhile?

[Achan hiArusa]

In my campaign I just let the characters upgrade their toughness to the next better one when they met the Fort Save Prerequisite (based on Masters of the Wild, Normal>Dwarf's>Giant's>Dragon's Toughness) and then to Epic once they hit 21st level. Another way would be to make it + 3 + 1 per odd level after 1st.

 

[The Truth]

I think the fix for this is very simple: make Toughness the prerequisite of Improved Toughness (+1 hp/level). Improved Toughness on its own seems a little too good for a feat, and it only makes sense that it would actually need Toughness for a prereq. Low-level characters get a nice +3 bonus to hp, and on the levels that ceases to be important the level-based hps pick up the slack. Plus is nicely mirrors a the number of bonus skill points you get from a higher Intelligence or being a human.

 

[Notmousse]

It's a strong argument for fractional saves and BAB.

Cheers, -- N

Not nearly so fun. Besides XP penalties should do for most builds that want to dip like that.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I rename Toughness to Dauntless and it gives 5 hp as a one time bonus. Then I have touhness do 1 hp per level/HD.

 

[Technik4]

I think 4 is the right number. Balanced for the early game, but a little weak for the late-game. Maybe say that after you are level 10 you gain 4 more (total of 8)? It still on the weak side but keep in mind this is a feat people take when they start at level 1 and play a campaign, not when they design level 6 characters for a higher-level campaign.

 

[maggot]

I've run campaigns with toughness set at 4 and 6, but still never had anyone take it. But it did make for some nasty first level NPCs.

All total, I think toughness is just about right around 4 if you have retraining rules. Without retraining rules, maybe 8, maybe 10.

 

[was]

i voted for 5

 

[green slime]

I agree that +1 hp/hd is too much, but it's the right direction.

So what I do is base it off your Fort save.

You get 1 + (base Fort save) hp, and when your Fort save goes up, you get more HP.

So a Fighter, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Ranger or Monk would get a total of +3 hp at 1st level, +4 at 2nd level, +5 at 4th, etc.; while others (Wizard, Rogue, etc.) would get a total of +1 hp at 1st level and would have to wait until 3rd level to see their bonus go up to +2.

At 20th level, good Fort classes gain +13 total hp, while bad Fort classes gain +7 total hp.

Cheers, -- N

So you don't like the Improved Toughness feat?

I'd go for ordinary toughness adding one HD of your class for that particular level. (1d10 for a fighter, if you took it as a fighter feat, 1d4 for a wizard.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'd go for ordinary toughness adding one HD of your class for that particular level. (1d10 for a fighter, if you took it as a fighter feat, 1d4 for a wizard.

If you don't get to add your con bonus then it's not worth it (I can spend a feat to get 1 hp!? [sarcasm] Gee, Thanks. [/sarcasm])
On the other hand, getting to add your Con bonus would be too good. Level up and gain 2d12 + 2*Con.



I'm am confused as to why +1 hp per HD is too good. It's an extra 1 to 20 hp when the same feat could be spent on Power Attack for an extra +1 to +40 damage.

 

[Arkhandus]

Getting random HP from a feat is very bad. No one ever wants to waste a feat on 1-2 HP, especially not if they're a Wizard or, worse, a Sorcerer, who has kinda few feats and desperately needs HP.

+1 HP/HD is too much for a feat because 1) it duplicates the main benefit of +2 Constitution, 2) it makes many other feats look like more of a total waste (Dodge, Weapon Focus, Run, Skill Focus, etc.) because they don't scale with level and remain perpetually weak, and 3) it cheapens the differences in hit dice for each class (wizard gets average HP of a rogue, who gains average HP of a cleric, who gets average HP of a fighter, etc.) just a little. But mainly it's #1 and #2, really. Just a bit too much value for 1 feat IMO. Skill Focus doesn't function mostly like +2 Int, Dodge doesn't function mostly like +2 Dex, etc.

Also, keep in mind that if the feat is available more than once (which Toughness is, normally), it has to provide somewhat lower benefit than it would otherwise (I still consider Improved Toughness to be too good).