Towards a Workable RPG Theory

wedgeski said:
Hmm, this made me think a bit, as I'm not entirely sure that conflict is a necessary part of a roleplaying game. It is a necessary part of *fiction*, I would think, but not an RPG, which is kind of an interesting addition to the 'RPG as game or communal story-telling' argument that springs up from time-to-time.

I can certainly remember a few sessions of mine where there was very little or no conflict at all, where the PC's were simply living out a day-in-the-life, so to speak, although admittedly it would be hard to base an entire campaign on such a premise. I do however think that a table full of pure, unadulterated roleplayers (if such a thing exists) would get as much satisfaction from the pure joy of living this other life as most other, lesser mortals, get enjoyment from destroying the bad guy and rescuing the damsel.

Conflict can be as simple as buying breakfast from the innkeeper, facilitated by the protagonist's need to eat and the innkeeper's presence with food, and resolved by the protagonist's willingness to pay two copper pieces for breakfast. It could even be just a general concept of "conflict" with the environment in the protagonist's goal to reach the castle for an appointment, and having to contend with crowded streets and uptight guards.

mythusmage said:
Try this: An RPG consists of two elements. They are:

1. A world. A place where events occur. This world can be a vast as the multiverse or as constrained as the mind of a scizophrenic.

2. A system. Which describes the world and how it works.

I would suggest that "world" might be too closely associated with "continuity" and might not be the best word choice.

(This has possibilities. Thread topic: Are you a rat bastard game designer? )

I'm a college student, so I think the term "frustratingly unproductive amature game designer" would be more accurate ;)
 

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Jackelope King said:
Conflict can be as simple as buying breakfast from the innkeeper, facilitated by the protagonist's need to eat and the innkeeper's presence with food, and resolved by the protagonist's willingness to pay two copper pieces for breakfast. It could even be just a general concept of "conflict" with the environment in the protagonist's goal to reach the castle for an appointment, and having to contend with crowded streets and uptight guards.
Hmm... okay, yes, but by your definition a session with conflicts this trivial (i.e. not requiring a system or dice rolls) would become 'communal story-telling' and not a roleplaying game at all. I'm not sure which side of the argument that helps. :)

Jackelope King said:
I'm a college student, so I think the term "frustratingly unproductive amature game designer" would be more accurate ;)
If my university experience was anything to go by, "Hungry frustratingly unproductive amateur game designer" would be more appropriate. :)
 


Here is my theory: (Actually, this is practice.)

Once in a while, I get together with some friends to hang out, sling dice, and make up stories. All of this is bounded and contained by a ruleset originally crocked up by some guy named Gary. The story always tells itself, but is never revealed until a stopping point or plateau is reached, and we look back at where we have been. Role Playing Games are a journey, not a destination.
 

Jackelope King said:
"A roleplaying game is a series of fictional events described by and participated in by players with an underlying system that facilitates and resolves conflicts between the protagonists and antagonists."

Not bad, but i don't think this passes the Talisman Test.

By "Talisman Test" i mean "Could this be used to describe play of the Talisman boardgame?"

Why do i use Talisman? The game includes many elements that roleplaying games do (characters, a fictional world and so on) but is not really played like a "roleplaying game" in any sense of the concept.
 

mythusmage said:
That's the goal, to devise a workable RPG theory that describes and explains the phenomenon known as roleplaying games.

There's your first problem.

(Warning: We are using the scientific method for this project, not the academic method. :) )

And there's your second.
 

Don't get me wrong. I think yours is the best of the lot, Wil, but a methodology like this just won't work as a total model, in my opinion

Wil said:
A roleplaying game is a game where the players assume created roles for the purpose of entertainment.

Unfortunately, this leaves out people are are strictly interested in the character as a playing piece premise for problem solving. If we stretch "assume" to accept this then we include the noise of non-RPG activities, like Talisman, V:TES and Monopoly.

This is as opposed to:

1) People who assume given roles. We all assume roles everyday, from "employee", to "parent", to "automobile owner". We seldom have any control over these roles. In RPGs, we have a lot of control over creating the role.

I think the question of whether a game character or a real life persona grants more control is unanswerable.

2) Assumed roles, created or given, for other purposes. These can be therapeutic, professional, academic, etc. Roleplaying games are ostenstibly done for entertainment.

Again, there are questions about the motive and intention that are too subjective to resolve. We can think of flawed commonsense objections, but not very strict ones.

*However*, these attempts at definition are not useless as long as they are understood in a certain context, as one of a group of perspectives about a phenomenon and not the final word on it. The primary problem with Forge theory is that it is *totalizing* -- it claims to encompass everything -- so simply coming up with a new totalizing theory isn't solving that.
 

eyebeams said:
Unfortunately, this leaves out people are are strictly interested in the character as a playing piece premise for problem solving. If we stretch "assume" to accept this then we include the noise of non-RPG activities, like Talisman, V:TES and Monopoly.

Well, it was just a beginning ;) The goal of the player isn't what the definition of a roleplaying game should be - what roleplaying games are should be the definition. Regardless of intent, if the player is not actively assuming a role, it's not roleplaying. If it's not for entertainment, it's not a game.

That does, in order to make sure that we filter out noise, require some more definitions:

A role is a predefined framework - a container, if you will - that dictates limitations to the player's actions in the game. In most roleplaying games, this is the character - which has stats, skills, spells, whatever that determine what the character is capable of. Most roleplaying games assume behavioral limitations of some kind - alignment, traits, perks, flaws, virtues - but we may get to those here in a bit. Those limitations normally directly affect the choices the player can make - for example, in a game where wizards are constrained to not be proficient with melee weapons, the role of "wizard" can be assumed to not include being a swordsman. A person trying to play a wizard as a swordsman is not fulfilling the role of wizard, the same way as the father who spends all of his money on gambling and leaves nothing for food for the children is not fulfilling the role of "parent".

I think the question of whether a game character or a real life persona grants more control is unanswerable.

I'm hinging this on the fact the roles are created, by the players, the GM, or the game designers with entertainment value in mind. Social roles, such as "parent" or "employee" have been handed down to us. The question of whether or not these social roles were created is best left unanswered - it's sufficient enough to make the distinction between the roles that we assume on a daily basis and those that we create for play for the purposes of identifying "roleplaying".

Again, there are questions about the motive and intention that are too subjective to resolve. We can think of flawed commonsense objections, but not very strict ones.

Like I pointed out, motive or intention are not completely relevant to what a roleplaying game is. Regardless of why I play or how I play, the question that arises out of the foundation that I laid out is what isn't a roleplaying game, and why? In all games, we assume roles - it's the point of playing a game, really. What makes the difference between Talisman and a traditional rpg like D&D in weighing whether one is a roleplaying game or not?

My answer would probably have to be detachment. In a traditional boardgame, there is a large amount of detachment from the playing piece, either intentional or unintentional. You as the player may have a stake in winning the game through the conduit of the playing piece, but you seldom see the piece as having goals and emotions of its own. In a roleplaying game, that is one of the purposes - regardless if the player's intention is the exploration of an internal landscape, telling a good story, or solving puzzles - protraying the the goals and responses of the character are essential to all of them.

Just a brief aside on the game aspect: I believe that agreed upon rules are essential for a roleplaying game. They do not have to facilitate resolving conflict, and they do not have to set in stone. They just need to be mutually agreed upon by all of the players. Games have be rules. The key here is that, much like why we assume roles in rpgs, the rules are followed voluntarily. I don't follow the rules of being an employee completely voluntarily - I do so because I need a job, and not doing so will deprive me of income. In a game, I can choose which rules to follow or not follow, as long as there is consensus with the players. In computer games, I can likewise choose to not follow the rules - these are called cheats.

So I could revise my premise and say:

A roleplaying game is a game with a distinct set of rules that each of the players have agreed to follow beforehand, where the players assume created roles for the purpose of portraying the responses of a fictional persona for entertainment.

The biggest problem I can see is this still might be stretched to include V:TeS, and might leave the question unanswered: "If I'm playing Brothers in Arms: Earned in Blood, and I feel remorse for poor Private Marsh because the stupid AI keeps putting him in front of the oil drums, having I created attachment and am I roleplaying?"
 

Wil said:
Simple: you assume a role for the purpose of entertainment. I already answered that ;)

You're so close, but you're stopping short of the whole answer. You assume a role, but where does the action take place? And I'm talking about the role you play.
 

When I engage in roleplaying games, this is what I do. I sit or stand, usually in a single room, usually with more than one other person. We talk about things (I'm leaving out the other stuff, like, we metabolize and breathe and all that), we gesticulate, and, perhaps the weirdest of all, we intend things that aren't real.

But, my biggest hangup is that I'm unclear on the definition of "game" so I'm still working on that before I can get to what kind of game a RPG is.

Dave
 

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