D&D 5E Toxicity in the Fandom

[Ruin Explorer]

Then you have not been paying attention. Vox has a pretty good overview of it here: How being "woke" lost its meaning

Nothing in the article contradicts what I've actually said, but I can see "what I've actually said" is of limited interest compared to what people might like to imagine I've said. Which is pretty funny given my points re: people hearing "you're a racist" when the actual thing said was "you're saying racist things".

 

[Umbran]

This is a two-parter, Umbran

Yeah, and I'm questioning the second part - the assertion that nobody calls themselves woke expect to say they've been accused of it does not seem well supported.

 

[Medic]

linguist fiends.

I guess liberal academia really does turn people satanic.

 

[SkidAce]

The only way to have an actual discussion with someone is to understand that both sides may have some validity. While at the end, one side or the other may be determined wrong, or inaccurate, starting the conversation with both sides assured of their correctness is not a discussion, its a fight.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, and I'm questioning the second part - the assertion that nobody calls themselves wok expect to say they've been accused of it does not seem well supported.

FUKUI SAN! Iron Chef Chen Kenichi refuses to abandon his wok in the Yogurt Battle!

 

[Raunalyn]

I wonder if anyone else sees the irony in complaining about people imagining what they've said when that's what they've been doing to others in this very thread all along.

 

[payn]

I wonder if anyone else sees the irony in complaining about people imagining what they've said when that's what they've been doing to others in this very thread all along.

Just another Tuesday. At least tacos are on sale.

 

[Umbran]

I wonder if anyone else sees the irony in complaining about people imagining what they've said when that's what they've been doing to others in this very thread all along.

The first step in wisdom is to know a thing happens.
The second is to be able to notice it as it is happening.
The third is to be able to notice it when you do it yourself.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yeah, and I'm questioning the second part - the assertion that nobody calls themselves wok expect to say they've been accused of it does not seem well supported.

Okay? But remember I specified under 40? 65 seems quite a lot older than that.

Also, without the "bludgeon" component, it's just meaningless, isn't it? The whole complaint McWhorter made, which @Raunalyn repeated, was not about using the term about yourself (I suspect given his age and socialist bent, indeed he's probably done that), but about that plus using it as a bludgeon. So it's really pedantry of the very most pedantic kind, which I guess is kind of refreshing to see a mod engaging in like the rest of us plebes!

 

[Raunalyn]

The first step in wisdom is to know a thing happens.
The second is to be able to notice it as it is happening.
The third is to be able to notice it when you do it yourself.

That's fair. Noted

 

[Ancalagon]

And here I thought this thread was going to be about edition warriors in our fandom. Which is where I've seen the largest quantity of toxicity from fans. It's raging now on social media between 5e and PF2e fans.

I wish people understood more that ... a game is a sort of tool. It's like arguing what's best, a shovel or a screwdriver. They aren't the same, and different people have different preferences and... that's it.

 

[Ancalagon]

The only way to have an actual discussion with someone is to understand that both sides may have some validity. While at the end, one side or the other may be determined wrong, or inaccurate, starting the conversation with both sides assured of their correctness is not a discussion, its a fight.

In a saner world this would be true, but in some cases, compromise is... reaaaaly hard.

For example, homosexuality. It is a normal and harmless variation in human sexual behavior? Or an "abomination unto the Lord" that should be purged from society?

I used to see myself as a centrist, but I've come to realize that the impulse to compromise, the "both side of the story" ism can be quite harmful at times.

 

[Raunalyn]

In a saner world this would be true, but in some cases, compromise is... reaaaaly hard.

For example, homosexuality. It is a normal and harmless variation in human sexual behavior? Or an "abomination unto the Lord" that should be purged from society?

I used to see myself as a centrist, but I've come to realize that the impulse to compromise, the "both side of the story" ism can be quite harmful at times.

Politically, I am very much a centrist. It's amusing for me when I get called a "leftist socialist" by republicans and an "alt-right Trump supporter" by the left.

Hey man...I'm libertarian. Our goal is to take over the world by diligently leaving everyone alone.

 

[payn]

Politically, I am very much a centrist. It's amusing for me when I get called a "leftist socialist" by republicans and an "alt-right Trump supporter" by the left.

Hey man...I'm libertarian. Our goal is to take over the world by diligently leaving everyone alone.

Maybe guilt by association? Most self-identified libertarians I know tend to pick the worst of political positions and center them.

 

[Raunalyn]

Maybe guilt by association? Most self-identified libertarians I know tend to pick the worst of political positions and center them.

Could be. I also think that it could be this whole human nature to not like "other," whatever that other is. And I lump myself in with that statement.

The thing is, the Government and Media have honed in on that and have amplified it to create further division and disunity. It's sad. Most people aren't "racist" or "woke" or any of those pejoratives...they just want to live their lives in peace.

 

[billd91]

The thing is, the Government and Media have honed in on that and have amplified it to create further division and disunity. It's sad. Most people aren't "racist" or "woke" or any of those pejoratives...they just want to live their lives in peace.

Most people might want that... but what does them living their lives in peace cost someone else who cannot do so? It's all well and good to be able to live your life in peace, disengaged from these issues. It's great to be privileged enough to do so. Trouble is - the people who want to live in peace and disengaged are often easy to stir up against people who need to have those privileges extended by the people seeking to protect the exclusivity of those privileges. Hence, the dogwhistling, the "othering", and the other divisiveness that certain politicians will deliberately sow in order to gain power.
I mean, it's great to be able to trust that the police won't use excessive force against me, to have bodily autonomy, to be able to seek a mortgage in any neighborhood I want and can afford, be listened to by my doctor, to have health insurance, to have my job applications not overlooked simply because of my name, to not worry about being beat up because of my gender/sexual identity and preferences, and to not be blamed for spreading the latest pandemic. But that's not the world everyone lives in. It's not even the world everyone in my immediate family lives in. It sure would be nice for everyone to be able to benefit from those privileges and more and it would be great if people who really just want to live in peace didn't get all resentful when we ask that we all pull together as a nation to make it happen.

 

[Ancalagon]

. Most people aren't "racist" or "woke" or any of those pejoratives...they just want to live their lives in peace.

Actually... I've been thinking if I should mention this concept in this thread, and your post gives me the opening, I hope you don't mind.

First, we have to distinguish bigotry and racism. Most people when they think racism/racist they think of bigotry - the willful hatred of others based on perceived differences. And if you had written "Most people aren't bigots" I 100% would have agreed with you. But racism is not just that. It's not a binary state - either hateful or completely pure. There are all sorts of shades of it, levels, permutations.

We live in a society built on racist foundations - just look at our history, it's undeniable. And these racists ideas, tropes, notions, (and canards as @Ruin Explorer said) are all around us. In our media, in the news, in our laws, in corporate practices, etc, passed on down each generation.

It would be astonishing if I grew up and lived in this environment and somehow managed not to be racist! What am I, some sort of saint?!?

I'll give you a small example. Until about 5 years ago, I sometimes use the verb (spoiler for slur)

Spoiler

"gypped"

, meaning cheated, tricked or swindled. That is, until I learned the origin - this verb was based on prejudice against the Roma! So I stopped, and I've been telling friends when they use it (and they are just as "oh crap!" as I was).

So most of of us are not bigots, absolutely. But most of us - and I definitely include myself in this - have these ideas, these cultural ticks, habits, beliefs, that we have picked up from the past/present. And we have to be on guard, reflect, grow, so that we can be less racist. It's a multi generation project.

Whenever someone says "I'm not racist!!!"... I sometimes wonder how deeply they've thought about it.

 

[Raunalyn]

Most people might want that... but what does them living their lives in peace cost someone else who cannot do so? It's all well and good to be able to live your life in peace, disengaged from these issues. It's great to be privileged enough to do so. Trouble is - the people who want to live in peace and disengaged are often easy to stir up against people who need to have those privileges extended by the people seeking to protect the exclusivity of those privileges. Hence, the dogwhistling, the "othering", and the other divisiveness that certain politicians will deliberately sow in order to gain power.
I mean, it's great to be able to trust that the police won't use excessive force against me, to have bodily autonomy, to be able to seek a mortgage in any neighborhood I want and can afford, be listened to by my doctor, to have health insurance, to have my job applications not overlooked simply because of my name, to not worry about being beat up because of my gender/sexual identity and preferences, and to not be blamed for spreading the latest pandemic. But that's not the world everyone lives in. It's not even the world everyone in my immediate family lives in. It sure would be nice for everyone to be able to benefit from those privileges and more and it would be great if people who really just want to live in peace didn't get all resentful when we ask that we all pull together as a nation to make it happen.

Agreed

 

[Raunalyn]

Whenever someone says "I'm not racist!!!"... I sometimes wonder how deeply they've thought about it.

I don't mind you using my post as a segue.

I think there is a clear distinction between accusing someone of having racist thoughts or actions, and saying, "You're a racist and a bigot!"

 

[mythago]

No. You just didn't read what I wrote with an eye toward understanding, as opposed to argument.

Please consider that people can disagree with you for reasons that aren't "they are just malicious and acting in bad faith".

The welcoming was toward people that were considered outcasts in ways people do not fully grok now, but were very apparent back then. That said, I've written about these subjects before-

[+] Pride Month- A Brief History of Representation in TTRPGs

Please note that this is a "Plus" (+) thread, and is meant to be Positive. (Source) If you don't have something productive to say, please don't say it. In addition, there will be references to games mature subject matter in this post. While it is not explicit, it is present. So June is LGBTQI+...

www.enworld.org

That you immediately leap to attack that past practice as bullying and gatekeeping shows that you don't want to engage with the differences that the past had. That is neither to reify nor to dignify it, but it was different.

I want to make sure I'm understanding you here: you are saying that there was not bullying, gatekeeping, and exclusion in the TTRPG space, and that we are mistakenly and unfairly applying those labels to past times? You do understand that some of us were in fact around in "the past" you're talking about, and not only directly experienced bullying and gatekeeping, but saw it for what it was back then?