TPK - Therapy session.

[Ragmon]

Ragmon, you have have clearly already made up your mind. You came here not for advice, but for grousing. The person you need to bring this up with is your DM. You are clearly unable to get over the fact that you played the encounter badly, so you need to ask your DM to handhold more and to never throw anything threatening at your party. Just about everybody here is telling you that your DM acted appropriately. When the whole world is wrong, it may be time to look inward.

Yea, just like the title states, therapy... talking about the situation, cause most of my friends who I usually talk to about such geek/nerd stuff are abroad, and talking with the PCs would feel like we are talking behind the DMs back as a group.

Ok, so your saying is that its the players fault that they got killed by a single fighter who is 6+ levels higher then the group, while being backed up by a cleric of similar caliber...next time when you play ask your DM to pit you against a same sized group but 6+ levels higher then the group, and see what happens.

That and combat for us is only there like a mini-game, go trough it with little effort, so we can get back to the real playing.

Not everyone is approving of the DM's choice, in this thread.

If this would be an argument thread then I would argue about stuff. Its not so I m not. The it was the DMs choice to do so, I just wanted to talk about the situation, read some feedback have some conversations.

Now if your here to tell me my argument about the DM is invalid, then your in the wrong thread. This is just a civil conversation.

You can PM if you want to argue.

 

[ImperatorK]

Now if your here to tell me my argument about the DM is invalid, then your in the wrong thread. This is just a civil conversation.

Disagreement does not exclude civil conversation.

 

[Marshall Gatten]

Ok, so your saying is that its the players fault that they got killed by a single fighter who is 6+ levels higher then the group, while being backed up by a cleric of similar caliber...

No. I'm saying it's the players fault that after seeing a high level caster and several other warnings that you have admitted existed, instead of running away to fight another day they buffed up and ran into a fight they couldn't handle. The fact that they died in the process isn't the player's fault: It's Gary Gygax's fault. He was kind enough to create this game in the first place, and he killed lots of characters along the way. If you have a problem with the existence of D&D rules, you should go back in time and talk to him.

next time when you play ask your DM to pit you against a same sized group but 6+ levels higher then the group, and see what happens.

I already know what happens. We sneak off (or run screaming), research the opposition, level up a few times, and then go back and kick its butt.

If this would be an argument thread then I would argue about stuff. Its not so I m not.

Funny how you keep arguing with everything and then say that if it was an argument you'd start arguing about stuff. You even call it an argument in your own very next paragraph:

Now if your here to tell me my argument about the DM is invalid, then your in the wrong thread.

The bottom line is that your DM changed his style. Good on him. Getting better with practice is part of the job he's volunteered for. Getting better entails trying new things. Sometimes they work, sometimes they end up sending a player to Enworld to find sympathy. If you don't like an evolving GM, then MMORPGs might be a better fit to your gaming needs. But if you do like a game that gets better and better over time, then let your DM learn what works best by experimenting. Give him feedback. Admit to him that you're royally pissed about him killing your piece of paper. Maybe even point him to this thread so that he can learn not only from your own point of view but from the points of views of others on the same situation. Let him know what worked and didn't. And then let him adapt, improve, and overcome. And don't forget to try to adapt, improve, and overcome for yourself as well.

 

[N'raac]

A difference in DM and player expectations is often the source of significant game problems.

The story we've been given starts at the castle, but the story in game starts much earlier. Did the PC's immediately head off to this ice castle, or did they do some research beforehand? If the players are expecting to just be pointed towards the battle, but the DM is expecting them to research the enemy, then reconnoiter and gather intel, then this situation seems pretty likely.

The best advice so far on this thread, IMO, is a calm discussion between players and DM as to the game expectations - get the social contract out in the open so everyone has the same expectations of the game. That may mean the DM adjusting his game to be geared for combat-happy characters, the players adjusting their characters for a better balance between combat, investigation and interaction abilities, or a conclusion that the game the players want to play is not the game the DM wants to run so the DM needs new players and the players need a new DM.

 

[Oryan77]

In response to the OP complaining that the DM "changed his gaming style", I just want to add:

Metagaming what the DM will do is a great way to get your PC killed.

Looks like you learned that lesson the hard way. Rather than blaming the DM for that, blame yourself. You shouldn't have been metagaming in that way.

 

[Bullgrit]

I've been the DM for about 50% of all my D&D gaming career. So I've seen this kind of situation from both the DM's side and the Players' side.

As a Player, I've seen:

Two PCs fighting a tough opponent who was easily taking what they gave and giving back very dangerous attacks. The NPC opponent even stepped back one time to laugh at the PCs -- he could have spent that round tearing into them some more. The PCs, instead of getting the hint and taking the opportunity to retreat -- which I directly suggested as an allied combatant fighting other enemies nearby, re-engaged the NPC in hand-to-hand battle. Those two PCs were killed by that opponent, (after which I and the other PC wisely retreated).

As a DM, I've seen:

The PCs decided to avoid a particular monster in an adventure because they estimated it was too tough for them. Then a few days later in the adventure, that monster showed up again. But this time the monster was with it's master plus other equally powerful NPCs. This time the PCs decided to take on the whole crowd head-on. They TPKed.


So, as a D&Der, I know that Players can do some really, totally, bone-headed things that lead to the death of a PC or a whole party. They can go against every clue, every hint, every bold-faced, flashing, obvious warning, and every DM expectation in order to accomplish a TPK. And nearly every time, the Players will want to blame the DM. And the DM is often left with an exasperated shrug.

Bullgrit

 

[Umbran]

Funny how you keep arguing with everything and then say that if it was an argument you'd start arguing about stuff.

Folks,

Let's avoid making this personal, please and thank you.

 

[Oryan77]

What about on the flip side? Where the PCs do everything they can to avoid a wimpy NPC or to battle it with extreme caution because they thought it was going to be a lot tougher than it was?

I'm guilty of that as a player. This one scenario was so bad that all we had to do was hit it one more time for only around 10 points of damage. And instead, we spent about 8 rounds tactically positioning ourselves and discussing our next plan of attack. We thought it had much more hitpoints left than that.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

PCs being terrified for no good reason is discussed here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/fb/20040608a

In one campaign I was in, another PC overestimated how tough my PC was. I was playing a martial artist, and he assumed I had Evasion and that it was okay to throw a grenade that would catch me in the blast radius. (No, I didn't have Evasion -- I had improved speed so I could spend less time getting shot at without cover, and of course to increase the range of my charge attacks -- and nobody willingly throws grenades at friends.)

 

[Marshall Gatten]

What about on the flip side? Where the PCs do everything they can to avoid a wimpy NPC or to battle it with extreme caution because they thought it was going to be a lot tougher than it was?

I'm guilty of that as a player. This one scenario was so bad that all we had to do was hit it one more time for only around 10 points of damage. And instead, we spent about 8 rounds tactically positioning ourselves and discussing our next plan of attack. We thought it had much more hitpoints left than that.

That sounds like a DM who wasn't giving enough hints. If it was a high-hp creature who was brought down to 10HP, then descriptions should have been long the lines of, "As you watch from your hiding place, you see him limping back to his lair, holding a bleeding stump where one of his hands used to be. He repeatedly watches over his shoulder as if afraid somebody might be watching. At a bend in the path, he stumbles and almost falls, but stops to catch his breath before continuing on. He's covered in sweat, and seems to barely be holding back tears of pain."

Hearing it like that, you'd most likely have stepped out and run him through rather than wasting time planning.