TPKs

[Kanegrundar]

I'm with Diaglo on this one. Player sometimes have to pay the ultimate price for acting foolishly. TPK's just happen. I feel bad when I overestimate the party's strength, but most of the time a TPK come from the players not thinking though their actions.

Kane

 

[IronWolf]

TPK's are okay with me. If I know an encounter is going to be quite challenging, I like to make sure there is at least a way for the characters to retreat, fallback or otherwise get the heck out. As long as that escape exists in some form then I figure the characters could have tried to fall back before being TPK'ed.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Not all TPK's are the same

There are a few important variables in a TPK.

First is related to the encounter that causes it. Was it a random encounter or planned? Was it appropriate to the skills and resources of the party, or was it overpowering? Was the encounter the result of player specific decisions or scripted into the adventure?

A planned and overpowering TPK will probably result in the players beating the DM to death. A random encounter that is also overpowering and ends in TPK will also likely result in a beating for the DM. Both are very bad. A planned overpowering encounter is in and of its self not a bad thing, but a risky thing. Just be certain to leave your players an out, and give them a few opportunities to use that out.

But if you give your playes the map to the hoard of a great wyrm dragon when they are 3rd level, and they wander in and get eaten, then its the players fault.

One rule I would stand by though, is that under no circumstances should a trap result in a TPK. Having the entire party squished in a room with crushing walls is just dumb.

The second is related to the campaign that the TPK happens in. A one off adventure that has a TPK is no big thing. A campaign that is more action then story has a better chance of surviving a TPK then a story heavy campaign. A campaign that is only recently started, or has mostly casual players can also surive a TPK, since its likely no one is really attached to the characters that much.

I have had only one encounter that resulted in a TPK. And it was a perfectly Just TPK.

The players had ambushed a patrol belonging to a powerful Orog warlord, and decimated it. They tied a surviving bug bear to a tree, knocked its teeth in, and carved a message into its chest, challenging the Orog (Ogre / Orc half breed) warlord to "an honorable 4 vs 1" duel. They watched the area, and another patrol found the message, and left a written resopnse at the same location a few days later, telling the playes that Rourc (the warlord in question), accepted.

The players approached the camp, which had a few hundred humanoids in it, and were escored un harmed into the wardlords presence. Rourc was large, well muscled, and well armed and armoured. Rourc allowed them to prepar there gear. In a memorable, and prophetic bit of dialog, the following was said.

Rourc: Hmm, your not wearing armour? Are you a mage?
Mage: You will find out.
Rourc: You will die first.

The fight started. The players were about level 7 or 8. Rourc was 15th level and had some weapon specializations for his axe (2nd ed Combat and Tactics stuff).

Rourc dropped the mage in his first full attack. The players got worried.
Rourc dropped the dwarf in the 2nd round. The players got very scared.

The party tank and the rogue hammered away. The theif was desparate, and used called shots to his face. The tank also had over powered armour and had a huge AC. They got lucky, dropped him. High fives were going all around. Then I told the players the following.

"As you cut off his breast plate and ravage his belly with your Dagger Rourc dies. As he dies, he starts laughing. As he laughs, he fades from view. You still hear the laughing. Rourc steps out from his tent with a small man in blue robes at his side. 'That was funny. Allow me to introduce me to my friend. This is my illusionist. What kind of fool do you take me for? You are all very stupid. An honorable 4 vs 1 Duel? I am an Orog Warlord. What the hell makes you think I would fight honourably, let alone in an honorable 4 on 1 duel. You dont become the master of an army of blood thirsty goblins by being honourable.'. He looks to his side and utters the simple command 'kill them'."

At this point, my players chased me from the apartment, and I had to jump out a window to avoid a bit of a beating. Luckily, it was a first floor apartment. A few minutes later, the game resumed.

The party had all failed saves vs illusion. The fight had been run using Rourc's actual stats. Those that fell were allowed system shock rolls to survive. One failed and stayed dead. Then the fight started again, this time as a very non-honourable 500 vs 3 duel.

In the end, I did not kill them. The party was defeated, humiliated, and left tied to a tree with Rourcs mark carved into their chests. There were no hard feelings about it, and it is probably my favorite single encounter that I can recall running.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[S'mon]

I don't intervene to save the party, OTOH I try to ensure the players have all the available info their PCs should have and don't die from player ignorance. I don't think I've ever seen a party wiped out by a single overwhelming encounter, more commonly they get nickel & dimed to death, maybe losing their Cleric in one fight, then turning the wrong corner and blundering into the Crystal Ooze, then meeting a wandering troll that finishes off the survivor.

 

[S'mon]

In the end, I did not kill them. The party was defeated, humiliated, and left tied to a tree with Rourcs mark carved into their chests.

This is something I pretty much wil never do - while the villains might let no-threat commoners go, any PC who's a credible threat will not be humiliated and released, it just makes no sense to me. I can see an honorable enemy granting parole, and important PCs can be ransomed back to their own side, but it seems stupid to release someone who will be out for revenge. If the PCs are really lucky (ie use Fate Points, from Conan game) they might be rescued or have a chance to escape, otherwise they're most likely tortured to death.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

An encounter that the player characters cannot overcome through combat is fine, imo, provided there's another option. It only becomes a problem if they can't anticipate it - or if they can anticipate it, they can't avoid it, sneak past it, or talk their way past it.

One of the early 1e adventures, aimed at a party of starting characters, included a room full of 32 kobolds. If they charged the room, a wipe was pretty much inevitable; but the encounter was avoidable. The adventure designer simply assumed that the PCs would scout ahead, or would capture an earlier kobold and interrogate it, or would otherwise have some means of reconnaissance on hand. And, crucially, the adventure designer also assumed that it is okay to wipe the party if they fail to scout effectively.

I imagine that every DM here has used encounters the players couldn't beat in combat. Those encounters where a bunch of lowbie PCs has to tiptoe past a slumbering Giant are fine. Those encounters where a bunch of lowbie PCs have to talk their way past an alert but stupid Giant are also fine.

The alternative is to fill endless dungeons full of rooms that the PCs can definitely beat. The problem with this is that superior players will simply waltz through such a place, cherry-picking the encounters that they want to work on and dodging the ones they don't, and therefore it presents no challenge to them - but inferior players will simply charge, room by room, boot door, kill monster, grab treasure.

Frankly, a lot of people who've been playing for a long time still suck at D&D because they've never learned better.

You can tell these players because they fail to scout ahead, fail to take captives, fail to interrogate captives on the rare occasions when they do get some, and then whine when they run into an encounter they can't hack their way through. Often they will charge in without a plan and whine when they die. They fail to search for traps and then whine when a trap kills them. They fight to the death and often the idea that they can surrender to monsters doesn't even occur to them. They squabble and separate and even duel each other in dungeons.

These players who suck often continue to get away with it because when they die, they blame the DM for creating encounters that they couldn't handle. And all too often the DM believes them and tones back the encounters so that they can continue to suck at D&D without losing any characters.

I call it Sandbox D&D. The players play in a nice, safe sandbox where the DM has carefully removed the nasty sharp objects that could hurt them. If there's a difficult encounter coming up, the DM carefully flags it up for them and gives them plenty of warning. (I keep imagining dungeons with big signs on some of the doors saying "Health warning: This encounter could be harmful!") Treasure's contained in nice, helpfully-obvious containers scattered evenly throughout the dungeon, with some of the containers having predictable traps that will cause nothing worse than mild inconvenience if triggered. Heaven forbid that anything would actually be hidden effectively.

The problem with this comes when you get people who've only ever played Sandbox D&D playing around in a non-Sandbox dungeon. They get hurt on the nasty sharp edges and they think the DM's being unfair to them (classic example: Tomb of Horrors - players with any actual skill at D&D can get through it without casualties; Sandbox D&D players get wiped around room 7).

Sometimes, there are tears.

 

[DarrenGMiller]

What Thornir said.

Simplistic example -- party enters the dungeon, comes to the end of the corridor. Behind the door on the right is an Ogre, guarding a chest. The chest contains magic sword of BBEG slaying. Behind the door on the left is the BBEG that can only be slain by by the sword. Party goes left.

If, through bad design or planning on my part, they stumble into something over their heads without warning, then I would feel obliged to fudge things somehow.

OTOH, if there was a sign on the door to the left that said 'BBEG Keep Out' and they went left anyway, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Heh. It may be a simplistic example, but it is exactly what my players are facing right now. The room to the left is a roughly EL24 BBEG meat grinder (the PC's are 5th level). The room to the right is actually a series of chambers each containing a few Ogres. They are hell-bent on going left. One of them is actually trying to get them to face the Ogres for fear of a rear attack from them as they go left (they know what lies in each direction). The rest of the group won't listen.

DM

 

[Gentlegamer]

(Luckily my players are all 1e vets and remember the days of "he who fights and runs away...lives to fight another day.")

For thieves and MUs the motto is "he who fights and runs away . . . lives to run away another day."

 

[Gentlegamer]

PapersAndPaychecks: well said.

 

[diaglo]

(Luckily my players are all 1e vets and remember the days of "he who fights and runs away...lives to fight another day.")

this can be trained into new players, n00bs, also.