TPKs

[FreeTheSlaves]

As far as I'm concerned TPKs are almost always (to the point of being always) an utter failure either by the DM or player(s). Bad lucks doesn't kill a party, it kills a character or two.

The DM stacked an unavoidable encounter, overcompensated for the single over-balanced PC, ignored EL guidelines or any other error.

The player(s) did not plan properly, utilize all their abilities & allies, fail to appreciate the poor odds, the list goes on.

If the TPK occurs early in the campaign that's ok, there is little invested effort, but if it occurs after months of play someone is going to be miffed.

 

[Quasqueton]

Are there signs (obvious or subtle) that a TPK is about to occur in a battle? What are they? (I'm talking about signs visible to the Players/PCs.)

In my experience, and from what I've gathered reading about other groups' TPKs, when a PC goes down (negative hit points) in the first round or two of a combat, a TPK will probably follow. I think it would be a good idea to have a standing agreement that if a PC goes down in the first couple rounds of a combat, everyone should pull out (bringing the body if possible) as soon as they can.

Quasqueton

 

[MoonZar]

Scenario:

The PCs are about to enter a room from which the DM is pretty sure they won't be coming out of (for whatever reason). It is either a trap they haven't the means to escape, an enemy they haven't the power to overcome, or some other probable TPK situation. The DM didn't expect the PCs to reach this point so quickly, or didn't expect them to rush headlong into the situation so blindly.

Maybe the DM misjudged the challenge they are about the face, and now realizes his mistake. Maybe the PCs have behaved absolutely foolishly all the way to this point, and the DM knows they won't wise up before charging further forward. Maybe no one is really to blame, but things have just gone crazy for a minute (like they lost the magic widget they need to overcome the challenge, in a fluke accident, in the previous challenge).

Whatever the situation, and however the PCs arrived at it, the DM sees a TPK coming.

Question:

Should the DM alter (weaken or remove) the challenge in the room? Should the DM just flat out stop the Players/PCs from going further? Should the DM just let them act on their own, and let the TPK occur "naturally"?

Does your answer vary depending on someone being "at fault" for the coming disaster?

Are TPKs "wrong" things that should not happen in D&D, ever?

Are TPKs "natural" things that just sometimes happen. (Sometimes you get the bear. Sometimes the bear gets you.)

Quasqueton

If the DM trully over estimated the strenght of the trap/monsters he should weaken the trap/monster in the fly to give them a chance.

If the PC rushed in blindly and they take no precausion, maybe you should at least give them warning, by putting a lot of corpses on the ground near the trap/monster to give clue that something too much dangerous is ahead. If they go in regardless of the clue, to bad they will die and they will learn from it.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I think it would be a good idea to have a standing agreement that if a PC goes down in the first couple rounds of a combat, everyone should pull out (bringing the body if possible) as soon as they can.

Quasqueton

When we play and I'm a player, we've got a preplanned withdrawal procedure. There are several plans actually and nothing is rigid but it consists of:

1) The fastest on foot delaying the enemy so the slowest can retreat with bodies.
2) The fastest on foot racing to bring up the horses while the slowest go full defence.
3) The best rider delaying/distracting pursuit while the unskilled race off (we use contested ride skills for chases after comparing speed).

Whatever the case we use the interrupting free action to shout "retreat!" This has followed over to the game when I'm the DM, which pleases me greatly. I think it takes a perceptive player to sound the retreat and it requires everyone to pitch in to keep it from becoming a rout. All it takes is someone disregarding their companions and crossing their fingers for "all I need is one more hit" and everything turns to custard.

 

[JamesDJarvis]

An encounter that the player characters cannot overcome through combat is fine, imo, provided there's another option. It only becomes a problem if they can't anticipate it - or if they can anticipate it, they can't avoid it, sneak past it, or talk their way past it

... snip so there isn't too much stuff here ...

Sometimes, there are tears.

Amen.

I run a "status-quo" style of campaign usually so PCs that don't look before they leap are prone for very long falls.

In one campaing years ago there was a large valley where a clan of Stone Giants and a tribe of Trolls were feuding with each other, a very unhealthy place for the then mostly 2nd level pcs to wander into, if the players in my game just wandered into that combat zone they wouldn't have lasted long. Ultimately they eneded up helping form an alliance between a nearby clan of dwarves (not the nicest dwarves in the realm), some kobolds and the stone giants to clear out the trolls. So lots of diplomacy and daring exploits by thinking players who didn't just wander about trying to kill every creature in the camapign they bumped into all on thier own.

 

[MonsterMash]

This is something I pretty much wil never do - while the villains might let no-threat commoners go, any PC who's a credible threat will not be humiliated and released, it just makes no sense to me. I can see an honorable enemy granting parole, and important PCs can be ransomed back to their own side, but it seems stupid to release someone who will be out for revenge. If the PCs are really lucky (ie use Fate Points, from Conan game) they might be rescued or have a chance to escape, otherwise they're most likely tortured to death.

A reason to keep a dagger handy in case it's better to finish yourself off rather than be captured.

Got to admit I'd be surprised by a party that was a major threat to a villain being allowed to live, maybe an ancient dragon would let characters around 4th level live on as they would need some time to pose an immediate threat, particularly as I have slower levelling IMC.

An accidental TPK or one that happens be sheer preventable player stupidity I'm fine with, but I don't set up situations where there is only one possible option to prevent a TPK (hopefully).

 

[The_Universe]

I try to set up things so that if it ever gets to the point that there will be a TPK, it's their fault, not mine. I'm pretty clear about what's too challenging (and what might not be). Ignore those strong suggestions at your own peril.

 

[moritheil]

My players, at first level, were almost all in the same small room when someone read an application of explosive runes.

I didn't feel like TPKing them, so I gave them all enough of a circumstance bonus to let them make Ref saves, which made them fall between -1 and -10, instead of simply killing them outright.

The cleric and ranger were outside and got to rush in and frantically apply heal checks and cure minor wounds.

The guy who set off the runes, though? No save. He was vaporized. They asked if they could loot him, and I said, hmmm, you can get 1 or 2 cp worth of scrap metal . . .