Tracking over rock. Is it too easy?

[Lord Pendragon]

Not everyone can fly pendragon And i would still allow tracking checks to track flying foes, it would just be at an appropriate penalty.

No...that's not what I meant. My comment wasn't to indicate the trackee would be flying by 5th-level... Let me rephrase:

If a wizard can fly at 5th-level, I think it's perfectly reasonable for a 2nd-level tracker to follow someone down a corridor immediately after that someone has passed, and have a 45% chance of succeeding.

+12 came from a post above
+5 ranks
+2 ability
+4 synergy (knowledge- dungeonering and search)
+1 item (shouldnt be too hard really, but it isnt necissary, just a beanie)

That synergy is being purchased by at least 10 skill ranks. If a character spends 15 ranks on a single ability, they are supposed to be darned good at it. He's given up being good at other things to specialize. As far as the item is concerned, I don't remember seeing any +1 skill items in the DMG, and I certainly wouldn't allow them in my game, any more than I allow +1 ability items.

I like skills being useful and all, however some things should be difficult to low level people anyway.

Here is where our thoughts are diverging. To me, the DC20 is difficult to low-level people. The fact that a highly-focused track-monkey can accomplish it without failing does not disprove this.

That is not to say it should be made difficult to keep up with advancing skills. But I definately think that there should be a way to show other people having skills too.

A reasonable thought. And if tracking showed up a lot in my game, I might consider introducing an opposed roll. Survival vs. Survival, or perhaps Survival vs. Hide. But even with such a mechanic, the scenario you outlined is not a matter of "other people having skills too." The BBEG just ran down a hallway and shut the door behind him. He wasn't doing anything to obscure the trail, wasn't using a skill he'd spent ranks in to be good at. He simply ran down the hall, and for that DC20 works for me.

Tracking someone across a room from two days before after it has been trampled by a few hundred other people is dc 22. That seems.. odd.. to me.

IMO, the basic DC is for regular traffic. So the PCs follow a guy into the corridor, and because they can identify his tracks before he enters the corridor, they can then follow those same tracks through the corridor, even if other normal traffic has been there. Naturally, if the BBEG passed by, then 100 people ran into the room and stamped around to obscure the tracks, the trail would be destroyed, but then that's more than the standard DC assumes, IMO.

Same with the fighter example from above, if you only have three kinds of armor in the world and nothing else matters eventually someone will think something is wrong same problem.

I just don't see a problem.

 

[Scion]

If a wizard can fly at 5th-level, I think it's perfectly reasonable for a 2nd-level tracker to follow someone down a corridor immediately after that someone has passed, and have a 45% chance of succeeding..

Depending on the circumstances it very well might be, but there are no lists for them so they are all dm's call. I want there to be an actual list of modifiers. It is possible that the 20 could be reduced correct? then there is also the possibility of it being increased.

That synergy is being purchased by at least 10 skill ranks. If a character spends 15 ranks on a single ability, they are supposed to be darned good at it. He's given up being good at other things to specialize.

You will have to explain that one I'm afraid. Search is a very good skill, and a character who is already determined to be good at finding things will get it. So they give up nothing. For dungeoneering that is harder, but since it deals with abberations, caverns, oozes, and spelunking it is probably a good thing for at least someone in the party to have. So they are all very good skills to have. Sure, if they are putting 5 points into something other than search then they will be good at something else, but then they wont be good at searching. It works the same either way, but this way you get a good skill plus a bonus to another good skill. Doesnt look like giving up much.

To me, the DC20 is difficult to low-level people. The fact that a highly-focused track-monkey can accomplish it without failing does not disprove this.

Picking up 3 useful skills that happen to mesh well doesnt seem incredibly highly focused. Picking up skill focus feat and the skills does seem pretty focused though. But then with that feat he'll be able to track someone who is hiding their tracks without having to roll.

A reasonable thought. And if tracking showed up a lot in my game, I might consider introducing an opposed roll. Survival vs. Survival, or perhaps Survival vs. Hide. But even with such a mechanic, the scenario you outlined is not a matter of "other people having skills too." The BBEG just ran down a hallway and shut the door behind him. He wasn't doing anything to obscure the trail, wasn't using a skill he'd spent ranks in to be good at. He simply ran down the hall, and for that DC20 works for me.

But if he is skilled he will have some idea of what to do to minimize what people look for. Even failing that, the sheer fact that the corridor is used very often should pose some penalty. For all the characters know a hundred people could've passed through that corridor that very day. But there is no current mechanic other than, 'the dm can adjust dc's as he sees fit', and this just feels wrong.

True the guy is just running, lets say he has no skill and has no real intelligence. But he is smart enough to close the door behind him. Now, the room he just passed through is used often, most of the doors are used often, and the pc's have never been in this room before. DC 20 still? that seems odd to me. If anything in the world makes it more difficult then a whole lot of extra prints should.

IMO, the basic DC is for regular traffic. So the PCs follow a guy into the corridor, and because they can identify his tracks before he enters the corridor, they can then follow those same tracks through the corridor, even if other normal traffic has been there. Naturally, if the BBEG passed by, then 100 people ran into the room and stamped around to obscure the tracks, the trail would be destroyed, but then that's more than the standard DC assumes, IMO.I just don't see a problem.

It doesnt say what it is for other than 'stone floor'. So that could be he is the only person to have passed in days, in hours, in minutes, another person has passed since, 10, 100, 1000, etc. There needs to be a bit more detail here. Whatever you assume to be the case is good for your game, and as long as you are comfortable handling it that is fine. Consistancy is good, I would prefer the ability to be consistant across a vast range of encounters. Just a few extra lines of description would've solved the whole problem.

Some variety of opposed rolls, at least to some extent, might work. Possibly just getting to add certain modifiers or whatever.

DC 20 isnt terribly hard when you get to retry as often as you like. If you only have a +1 to your check you could still track this guy, for a mile. Sure it might take an hour and he'll be well on his way by then, but that doesnt matter, you can still find him.

So for a single feat and a skill point you can track just about anyone, just about anywhere. If you want to actually put more points into it then you are able to take 10 within a few levels and never fail.

There are reasons people want to change tumble. This skill needs something similar, or at least an extra chart of modifiers that will apply to a variety of cases.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You will have to explain that one I'm afraid. Search is a very good skill, and a character who is already determined to be good at finding things will get it. So they give up nothing.

You can't simply write off opportunity cost because a skill has multiple uses. Might as well write off Survival itself, since it can be used to forage in the wild, and a tracker is going to want to sustain himself while he's out in the wilderness. Opportunity cost is opportunity cost, regardless of what other uses there are for Survival or Search.

But if he is skilled he will have some idea of what to do to minimize what people look for.

Skilled in what? He didn't do anything to obscure his trail. He isn't automatically hard to track just because he has character levels, unless those levels happen to be in druid.

Even failing that, the sheer fact that the corridor is used very often should pose some penalty. For all the characters know a hundred people could've passed through that corridor that very day. But there is no current mechanic other than, 'the dm can adjust dc's as he sees fit', and this just feels wrong.

So you're unhappy because the DMG hasn't spelled out the circumstance modifiers for you?

True the guy is just running, lets say he has no skill and has no real intelligence. But he is smart enough to close the door behind him. Now, the room he just passed through is used often, most of the doors are used often, and the pc's have never been in this room before. DC 20 still?

Yes. Closing the door behind him doesn't warrant a circumstance penalty. He's done nothing to hide his trail. The entirety of his actions was "run down the corridor and go through a door." DC20 is just fine.

that seems odd to me. If anything in the world makes it more difficult then a whole lot of extra prints should.

The standard DC is assuming there are other prints and trails. It's not "track over stone that has been undisturbed and has a thick layer of dust to make footprints"--it's "track across stone." That includes normal use.

It doesnt say what it is for other than 'stone floor'. So that could be he is the only person to have passed in days, in hours, in minutes, another person has passed since, 10, 100, 1000, etc. There needs to be a bit more detail here. Whatever you assume to be the case is good for your game, and as long as you are comfortable handling it that is fine. Consistancy is good, I would prefer the ability to be consistant across a vast range of encounters. Just a few extra lines of description would've solved the whole problem.

If every possible circumstance to every use of every skill were in the PH and DMG, the things would weigh about 50lbs. each. The DCs put the DM in the ballpark, a circumstance bonus/penalty here and there brings it home.

If consistency is your goal, then simply write down your rulings and look them up next time you need to rule. The only thing adding to the RAW would do is try and make my game consistant with yours, and we've already seen that we have very different ideas on what an appropriate DC is to track a fleeing baddie down a corridor and through a door.

DC 20 isnt terribly hard when you get to retry as often as you like. If you only have a +1 to your check you could still track this guy, for a mile. Sure it might take an hour and he'll be well on his way by then, but that doesnt matter, you can still find him.

Doesn't matter? Time is everything when you're tracking somebody. Again, we seem to have a significant difference of opinion here. You make light of the time, focusing on the fact that a low-level character can succeed eventually. I am not bothered by that eventual success, because by the time the PCs arrive, the BBEG will have informed the constabulary that some brigands are following him, downed a satchel full of healing potions, and taken the ferry across the river.

There are reasons people want to change tumble.

I disagree with most of those reasons. But that's an entirely different thread.

In the end, I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree. I wish you luck in finding a DC you are comfortable with, my friend. Good gaming.

 

[DarkMaster]

Ok but what is the usefulness of tracking that guy if it takes you 1 hour for a few minutes or seconds of movement, you are better off opening all the rooms in the dungeon it will be quicker.

You also seem to underestimate feats, in order to use the tracking effectively against that opponent I would say you need 20 ranks or more to be able to keep up with him otherwise you will be so far behind. Fine you were able to track him but he his long gone.

The designer of the game evaluated that for this skilled/feat combination to be balanced the most difficult surface DC should be 20. It means that for somebody who is just initiated to tracking has 5% per 10 minutes to find some clue on where the guy went. Therefore the initiate will take 1:40h on average to find a small clue on a 5 X 5 feet on where the villain went, then the next 5 foot you can have to restart again because the track is difficult to follow since so many people walk down that path. Then take the example of someone with survival 10 usually a fifth - seventh level character it takes him on average 7 or 8 minutes to find a clue to follow the track on a 5X5 grid element.
fifth - seventh level are rare and exceptional people, in my world at least, you cannot raise entire army of 5-7 th level individual they are usually your veteran lieutenant or captain.

Really don't find it is overated, if you would tell me that a 1st level ranger can run while tracking your villain in the dungeon then yes it is way too powerfull, but not as it is now.

 

[Scion]

I agree that we shall have to disagree on this one, but I would like to ask a few things.

First of all, opportunity cost? By taking one skill over another that is a cost sure. But it is always there no matter which skill the character took. So all things being equal it costs just as much to take any class skill as another, but search helps with his track so taking a different skill actually winds up costing slightly more.

So by not taking search he cant search as well, that is a cost. But also by not taking search he cant track as well. Cost x2. Now, they arent necissarily equal, but I think it is something to take into account.

Secondly, what do you think would be an appropriate modifier? How do you think it would be applied? After all, if you have this stone floor, what would adjust the dc up or down? I would like a small list of what you feel are appropriate things and appropriate dc modfications if you will It would help me understand where you are coming from with why you leave it dc 20.

 

[Scion]

Ok but what is the usefulness of tracking that guy if it takes you 1 hour for a few minutes or seconds of movement, you are better off opening all the rooms in the dungeon it will be quicker.

Then you are saying track is always useless indoors? I certainly hope not, skills do have uses.

You also seem to underestimate feats, in order to use the tracking effectively against that opponent I would say you need 20 ranks or more to be able to keep up with him otherwise you will be so far behind. Fine you were able to track him but he his long gone.

Long gone? At some point people have to stop to rest. This is how things work in many books while tracking, you track them over the course of days and catch up at night or find out where they went at the end. It isnt about finding them instantly in most cases. So the time dealy isnt huge. Also, 20 ranks or more?? Now you are saying it takes level 17+ to be able to use it? Outdoors there are only so many places that dc 20 comes into play, with a +12 at level 2 the character can get pretty high up there before too long.

Plus, currently there is only one way for characters to increase the dc. That is to 'hide their tracks'. this is fairly undefined but cuts their movement rate in half. So outdoors even when they are hiding their tracks it is still pretty easy to track them, and to keep up.

Not terribly here nor there, but definately something to consider.

The designer of the game evaluated that for this skilled/feat combination to be balanced the most difficult surface DC should be 20. It means that for somebody who is just initiated to tracking has 5% per 10 minutes to find some clue on where the guy went.

Just initiated? I guess you mean with no ranks and no wisdom. So again, people with no skill cant track very well. This tends not to prove anything

1st level guy can have 4 ranks, and if he spent the feat on it then chances are good he will pick up 4 ranks. Especially since this skill is incredibly useful before picking up track.

So that would mean, moving at half speed, he gets a check to hit 16 or higher on a d20. 25% chance to be able to follow the guy for 1 mile with no futher checks. If he makes that particular check then anywhere that guy goes inside his building the character will follow. 1 mile indoors is a very large amount.

If he fails the first check then he has to wait 10 minutes, in your paragraph above this apparently means that it is worthless for you. Thats fine I suppose.. level 1 guy has 1 in 4 chance of winning, elsewise you let your foe get away.

Unless you go for the rest of the checks, and try to catch up later by hunting him down with more track checks. ::shrugs:: This is just a guy with no wisdom and a few ranks in the skill. This works in this case to some degree.. if you just pick up the foe and drop them out of the game when they are 'out of site for more than a few moments' or something like that, but I could be misunderstanding what you mean by useless


The rest of your post talked about 5x5 areas, unless the actual phb says something different than the srd a single successful check lets you follow the guy for a mile.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

As far as the item is concerned, I don't remember seeing any +1 skill items in the DMG, and I certainly wouldn't allow them in my game, any more than I allow +1 ability items.

Kind of a tangent, but doesn't the Stone of Good Luck give you a +1 to skill checks? Or maybe one of the Ioun Stones? Not the most common things at second level, but they do exist.
Guidance spell would accomplish the same.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Kind of a tangent, but doesn't the Stone of Good Luck give you a +1 to skill checks? Or maybe one of the Ioun Stones? Not the most common things at second level, but they do exist.
Guidance spell would accomplish the same.

Yes, the Stone of Good Luck provides a +1 bonus to skill checks. It is also 10,000gp. Unless you're playing in a high, high, high magic campaign, not something a 2nd-level PC is going to have access to.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I agree that we shall have to disagree on this one, but I would like to ask a few things.

All right, fair enough.

First of all, opportunity cost? By taking one skill over another that is a cost sure. But it is always there no matter which skill the character took. So all things being equal it costs just as much to take any class skill as another, but search helps with his track so taking a different skill actually winds up costing slightly more.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with this paragraph. My point was that to gain a high level of tracking ability, you're sacrificing your ability to be proficient in other abilities, such as Listen, Balance, Tumble, or Knowledge (Nature). Even more so if you're going to pick up Search and Knowledge (Dungeoneering).

Saying "any good tracker would have search anyway" is flawed. Opportunity cost is opportunity cost, even if there are other compelling reasons to take a particular skill. You are still paying for your tracking proficiency.

Incidentally, now that tracking revolves around Survival instead of Search, I don't think it's entirely necessary that a ranger or tracker take search. There are a lot of nice skills on the ranger skill list...

So by not taking search he cant search as well, that is a cost. But also by not taking search he cant track as well. Cost x2. Now, they arent necissarily equal, but I think it is something to take into account.

Tracking does not depend on Search in 3.5. They're completely independent. The only connection would be trying to find a secret door the villain fled through, if it came to that. Basically, you no longer need Search to be a good tracker. So a ranger could very easily ignore search (leaving that for the rogue to pick up for finding traps,) and take other skills instead. Unless he wants that synergy bonus, at which point he sacrifices 5 ranks for +2 to his Survival while tracking.

Secondly, what do you think would be an appropriate modifier? How do you think it would be applied? After all, if you have this stone floor, what would adjust the dc up or down? I would like a small list of what you feel are appropriate things and appropriate dc modfications if you will It would help me understand where you are coming from with why you leave it dc 20.

Sure.

Let's assume the BBEG rushes down a stone corridor, through a door (it closes behind him). Then two minutes later the PCs enter the corridor looking for the BBEG's trail.

Base DC 20 (indoor floor).
+1 (poor lighting: there are only a couple of flickering torches in the room).

Final DC: 21. Or 20 if there's plenty of light, but I tend to think of castles as being poorly lit.

If the BBEG takes a minute to try and obscure his trail, +5 to the DC. If time passes, +1 per day the trail gets old.

Pretty much I'd rule it by the book. Also note that every time the trail becomes difficult to follow, the tracker has to make a new check.

You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow.

Indoors, I'd rule that the tracks become difficult to follow each time the prey enters a new room with more than one door. So for each door closed, that's another chance to blow the Tracking check and lose the trail. And once you've lost the trail, that's another 10 minutes (indoors) before you can retry.

Now, as far as circumstance modifiers I might use?

If the BBEG runs through a hall where several guards are practicing their swordfighting: +2 (more scuffling over the stone means a harder check.)

If the BBEG runs through a hall where there is a Grand Ball taking place, rushes through the dancers, and slips out a side entrance: +10 (if he's close on the BBEG's heels, the tracker might note the disturbance in the dancers, see a bit of spilt wine where one dancer was jostled, etc. but it's going to be an extremely tough check.)

If the BBEG runs across a floor recently mopped by a cleaning wench: -2 (the wet stone would hold tracks better.)

If the BBEG runs through a dusty room that hasn't been used in decades: -10 (the inch-thick dust...or absence thereof...would be a dead giveaway.)

 

[hong]

You will have to explain that one I'm afraid. Search is a very good skill, and a character who is already determined to be good at finding things will get it.

Shock gripped the world today, when it was revealed that someone who wants to be good at finding things might actually be GOOD AT FINDING THINGS.

Picking up 3 useful skills that happen to mesh well doesnt seem incredibly highly focused.

Because being highly focused involves picking up 3 useless skills that don't relate to each other at all, apparently.