Tracking over rock. Is it too easy?

[Scion]

Who said anything about setting dc's vs the pc's skill? no one so far as I can tell.

It is merely saying that there is, 'snow balls chance in a firery inferno and so should be hard'. Whether or not this is a case of that is all dependent of the circumstances.

Really this thread is reminding me of the people who wanted to hide in bright light in an empty round 6' tall room wearing black clothes standing next to the white walls. Even if you roll a natural 20, have 23 ranks in hide, and have a dexterity of 50 you are nothiding.

I have already said that there is a chance, but it should not be as easy as dc 20, nor should making that dc allow the tracker to track a character through a mile of indoor corridors.

::shrugs:: superbuff the pc's or nerf them as you see fit. I'll take the base core stuff, and then add circumstance modifers as the dmg says to.

 

[Scion]

*needless spell references removed*
And for your information, taking something out of the realm of possibilities means "making something impossible".

So what if your precious BBEG can be tracked down a corridor - doesn't he have a better escape plan than that??

I am not sure if you are trying to be insulting or not by putting words in my mouth, but I do wish you would avoid it if possible.

Out of the realm of possibilities of level one characters is NOT, I repeat NOT, the same as making it impossible in any way, shape, or form. Those 10th level characters have some skill bonus (probably up to around +20), changing the dc to be 35 (dc 20 base, plus whatever modifiers are there. well traveled, lack of blah, other blahs, etc) is appropriate, not nerfing.

Again, who cares about the bbeg? I have asked this several times, look at it from the pc's point of view. If they were trying to escape in such a way what would they expect? Would they expect to not have any chance what-so-ever? or not? They do happen to have skills too.. sometimes the badguys have skills! gasp! or even a contigency plan. If there are 30 doors and 7 of them lead outside more or less guessing isnt helpful.

The spell references were unnecissary because they do not address the issue at all.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If they were trying to escape in such a way what would they expect? Would they expect to not have any chance what-so-ever? or not?

If they were trying to escape from a 10th-level tracker, then yeah, they should expect to not have much of a chance to evade him by running through a corridor and hoping he picks the wrong one.

Hong said it all. At 1st-level, picking the right door would be an appropriate challenge. At 10th-level, it's not, nor should it be.

This thread reminds me of a previous one about a rope bridge. The DM was unhappy that his PCs could easily cross it, so he was looking for ideas for making super-slick rope/planks, etc. At the end of the day, though, the best thing to do is forget the rope bridge entirely and look at other, level-appropriate challenges.

Forget about the rope bridge, my friend. Next time, have the BBEG escape onto a different plane.

 

[Scion]

::shrugs:: to each their own. It is more like the rogue in the room that cannot hide trying to hide than a rope bridge covered in oil.

This isnt something that a 10th level specialized character would have a problem with even at the dc I set so that isnt the point.

The point is that it should be much more difficult than is listed, but that is ok since it is a baseline.

Should a first or second level character (definately not a highly proficient tracker just yet) have an incredibly high chance? Doubtful. From the other side, stone floor is just that. But stone floor with thousands of misleading markings, and nothing else should be more difficult.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Who said anything about setting dc's vs the pc's skill? no one so far as I can tell.

Nobody said it explicitly. However, that is always a consideration and so I was providing a caution. Whenever you set the DC according to how hard you think it should be, there's a real temptation to take the PC's skills into account. That is unfair to the PC, especially at high levels. If you've never encountered this phenomenon, then you have been lucky and had very good DMs.
If the DM always sets the DC as "a very small chance for the best PC and no chance at all for anybody else" then there's never any point at getting really good at a skill - no matter how good you are, you always need an 18 (or 17, 19, 20). IMO, if you've burned the feats and skill points to get really good at one skill, you should be able to minimize the effects of chance and, yes, even take 10 to reliably beat checks on that skill that a non-focused character would only beat on a very good roll.

Basically, if you're going to set the DC as "A snowball's chance in Hell for a very competent tracking-specialized novice ranger" then it can't be harder than about DC 30. (roll 20, +3 Wis, +3 Skill Focus, +4 ranks) - and therefore the L10 tracking-specialized ranger can probably accomplish it on a 6 (+4 Wis, +3 Skill Focus, +2 self-sufficient, +2 synergy bonus, +13 for ranks). The L10 combat-specialized ranger can do it on a 12 (with only a +3 Wis and no feat bonuses); both of these are without favored enemy bonuses.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Those 10th level characters have some skill bonus (probably up to around +20), changing the dc to be 35 (dc 20 base, plus whatever modifiers are there. well traveled, lack of blah, other blahs, etc) is appropriate, not nerfing.

Oh, my mistake, someone DID specifically suggest tying the DC to the PCs skills. You did.
Look, here you suggest making the DC 35 is reasonable *because* the PC has a skill of +20. Well, the PC didn't get that skill for nothing. Those skill bonuses come at the expense of other abilities - the abilities you would have gotten by choosing a non-skill class. A PC who has chosen to take a skill-focused class, who has chosen to spend skill points on a particular skill (possibly at the expense of a life-saving skill such as Balance or Swim), who has chosen to take skill feats rather than combat feats, such a PC deserves some chance of success.
If the PC instead had played a multiclass character that only had a skill bonus of +15, would you say that a DC of 30 was appropriate?
If the PC had maxed out Survival with feats and got up to +25, would you say that a DC of 40 was appropriate?

 

[Scion]

Nope, sorry, you are wrong. I have tried to state the same thing over and over again, from both angles, so it may sound like that. But it was not intended as you can see from the rest of my posts, plus the one you are thinking of for that matter.

What would you set the dc at for this scenario? 20? Then what if there was little traffic on the floor? 20? how about if there was none, but no dust? 20? a layer of dust? 20? a blood trail and signs pointing towards the correct door? 20?

What in your estimation would be sufficient to make the dc go up? apparently nothing, very odd. Somewhere, something has to have the ability to modify it up or down.

Edit: your quote of me proves my point, I was saying it should be very hard, and that a 1st level character should have little to no chance. While at the same time someone specializing in it will still have a chance. I did not set the dc based on the character, I set the dc, and then stated that characters who have spent the time to get good at it could make it. Very different, incredibly so in fact.

 

[Diirk]

What would you set the dc at for this scenario? 20? Then what if there was little traffic on the floor? 20? how about if there was none, but no dust? 20? a layer of dust? 20? a blood trail and signs pointing towards the correct door? 20?

20 for this scenario would be correct... "Hard Ground: Any surface that doesn’t hold footprints at all, such as bare rock or an indoor floor. Most streambeds fall into this category, since any footprints left behind are obscured or washed away. The creature leaves only traces (scuff marks or displaced pebbles)."

Little traffic on the floor? 20... maybe a small circumstance penalty if there's other obscuring trails

Layer of dust? 15. "Firm Ground: Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like) or exceptionally soft or dirty indoor surfaces (thick rugs and very dirty or dusty floors). The creature might leave some traces (broken branches or tufts of hair), but it leaves only occasional or partial footprints."

blood trails and signs? 0. But they might suspect a trap ;o)

Other things that add or lower the DC ? Size modifiers (smaller creatures harder to track), if the party being tracked spends time trying to conceal his trail it makes it harder, multiple people in the party being tracked make it easier, etc

 

[Darklone]

Guys, just a little bit info. You know the Aborigines in Australia? There's a nice little story about their tracking abilities.

One guy was driving through the outback when suddenly his friend, a native from the area, hammered on the roof of his car and urged him to stop. Driving at a good speed, that guy had seen footsteps on the ground and recognized them at once as his fathers whom he hadn't seen since more than 20 years.

Children in a village there were able to tell nearly exact time and order of more than 15 people who came by during the day at a certain point with just a short look on the ground in the evening.

So tracking someone on solid rock may seem silly to us. But perhaps this guy was wearing boots which left a minor trace of dirt?

 

[Allanon]

Guys, just a little bit info. You know the Aborigines in Australia? There's a nice little story about their tracking abilities.

One guy was driving through the outback when suddenly his friend, a native from the area, hammered on the roof of his car and urged him to stop. Driving at a good speed, that guy had seen footsteps on the ground and recognized them at once as his fathers whom he hadn't seen since more than 20 years.

Children in a village there were able to tell nearly exact time and order of more than 15 people who came by during the day at a certain point with just a short look on the ground in the evening.

So tracking someone on solid rock may seem silly to us. But perhaps this guy was wearing boots which left a minor trace of dirt?

Although this is true, you also have to factor in that these 'natives' (Is it just me or does the word natives have a condescending tone to it? If so it's not meant that way) had a home ground advantage. Put them in for example a big city and ask them to do the same would make it practically impossible. So in game terms they got a bonus to there tracking skill when on their home ground but I would give them a big fat penalty when trying it in a unfamiliar city for example.