Tracy Hickman's view of the Dragon #300 sealed section

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'm not ashamed to say it--I agree with Tracy Hickman in regard to the supposedly "mature" content of the sealed section of Dragon Magazine. It's despicable and it should not have been included. It's also a cheap marketing ploy but that doesn't make it any less vile or despicable. It also doesn't justify its printing. I suppose in the eyes of half the posters here, that makes me
"hateful", "bigoted", "narrowminded", a "religious zealot", and numerous other ad-homonim substitutes thought which I regularly see employed here when it is suggested that any exercise of thought or the imagination could possibly be bad.

If you're in that group, think carefully about the logical outcome of your though processes. Would it disturb you to find a group role-playing the 9/11 terrorists? ("I have +15 to pilot (jumbo jet) so I can crash the plane into the building, right"). How about a group role-playing the rape and murder of that little girl down in Southern California? (Player to DM: "Does she scream? Good, I begin to torture her--do I get a synergy bonus from having watched the videos?"). If these examples are offensive to you, that's exactly the point. They ought to offend you. If they don't, I rather doubt your moral sensibilities. Such things are not fit topics for entertainment. But that's exactly the kind of thing that the push towards "mature content" in gaming encourages. Those hypothetical campaigns are certainly vile--almost beyond belief--but Dragon magazine mentions "vile" campaigns as just another option for our entertainment--neither better nor worse than heroic campaigns. Think very carefully about what you accept and encourage. You might just get it and then everyone will have to live with the consequences.

Fortunately, this board, unlike many places on the internet, also has a group of people who are actually willing to think and to employ their moral faculties. My thanks to those of you who have posted in this thread. Had you not, my disgust for the other commentary would probably have driven me away from the boards and possibly away from gaming which I enjoy very much.

 

[ForceUser]

I only have to look at the skyline whenever I go to work to be reminded, but that's only me...and a few million other New Yorkers.

At the risk of seeming unmasculine, (hug).

 

[Golem Joe]

Tracy Hickman is guilty of slandering innocent industry professionals and should make a public apology to all involved. He is also guilty of trivializing the REAL tragedy that occured a year ago with the terrorist attacks.

I think you need to go back and reread the requirements of a slander charge.

I'm sure the families of those that died that day wouldn't enjoy seeing those events compared to a silly method of thinking concerning how a role-playing game should be played.

Just curious, but are you suggesting the correlation would have been alright PRE-9/11?

He also mistakenly took the approach of insulting the general gamer that would desire to play an evil PC or implement parts of tBoVD by saying " And my I further suggest that you demonstrate your own maturity by avoiding purchasing or playing ANYTHING labeled for ‘Mature Audiences Only".

By saying they are motivated out of baser instincts, yes he did. Anyone else here ever had issues with a player who took playing his character as an excuse to be as evil and depraved as he could be? I won't say there aren't people capable of playing a good villain. But most players who go the "evil" route are just looking to thumb their nose at societal norms. I certainly wouldn't put up with that in one of my games.

A magazine that over-dramatized the contents of the work by the opinion of everyone that has read it save Tracy Hickman (I've yet to see someone that has read the sealed portions agree that it *should* have been sealed).

Well, in Tracy's opinion it should have been omitted completely. How's that?

A magazine that despite whatever some people say (marketing ploy or legitimate concern), tried to stop younger audiences from perusing its "questionable" contents.

By "sealing" the contents? Oh, good luck. I bet that won't even keep kids out of it at Barnes and Noble, let alone in their own homes.

A magazine that has given Mr. Hickman work in the past and didn't deserve the public lashing that it received by Mr. Hickman.

In your opinion it doesn't. In his, it does.

For whatever reason, there are multitudes of people that want this book and who has the right to stop WotC from giving it to them?

No one. And I don't have the right to stop you from shooting up with heroin, either. I can't make you stop reading trashy romances or watching porn. But just because someone CAN give you something doesn't mean its the right thing to do. (BTW, I do realize no one is gonna DIE from reading BoVD. The question is does it cheapen the game as a whole?)

Do you know the product release schedule of WotC for the next 5 years or so? Nope, I didn't think so. Whether they decide to make a companion "Good" book or not is irrelevant -- there are people that want this book and they're getting it.

Actually, I've read posts where Monte has talked about doing a Book of Exalted Deeds, but has said WotC hasn't commissioned such a work. So maybe not 5 years, but at least the next year.

And this reasoning excuses Tracy for inappropriately slandering the names of good people? I don't care if the EGG, or Monte Cook said those remarks, I would nail them both on it.

And yet you don't seem to want to address the primary argument.

Yep, which is very ironic -- it is like the pot calling the kettle "black".

How so? First of all, Tracy Hickman did NOT write the Ravenloft campaign setting, only the original module. And I fail to see how THAT in any way encourages players to take the role of evil characters. Ditto with the Desert of Desolation books.

That is his creative approach and I loved almost every character. However, this doesn't give him the right to force his opinion on how evil should be handled in such an insulting and degrading manner, to both the designers and the customers that want it.

Actually he has every right to state his opinion on how evil should be handled, and can be as insulting and degrading as be pleases. Be so kind and tell us when he comes to your door and stops you from reading your Dragon, or when he spends his fortunes to buy every last copy of BoVD so that it never sees the light of day. Right now, the fact that this thread is so active with a variety of opinions proves he's done anything but FORCE an opinion on anyone.

Or will Monte be on later to say: "I wrote the book and I was wrong."

[snip]

I believe I was the only one loudly proclaiming my own personal boycott of all things Hickman. However, if Tracy would stand up and admit his mistake (not his opinion, but the rude and insulting manner in which he gave it), then I would gladly purchase every Hickman-related product that I originally planned to. Hell, I would forget the event ever occured.

So it is a fact that he was rude and insulting, not your opinion? Isn't that coming close to forcing an opinion on him?

 

[Clefton Twain]

Indifference

You know, I think I've passed the point of really caring much about things like this. Opinions are like rear-ends: Everybody's got one and they all stink (yes, even mine ).

If Tracy didn't like the whole vile thing he is entitled to do that. I personally didn't really find it all that great nor did I find it horrible. I found bits of stuff I could use in a campaign and bits of stuff I probably wouldn't.

There is always going to be something that somebody doesn't like about everything and I accept that. I just think Tracy went a little overboard in his fervor. Obviously he really REALLY (I mean *really*) hates it, we all figured that out.

But I don't really understand the link to terrorism. Mostly, I guess, I simply figure that if he was offended by reading it on September 11, then don't open the danged thing. Just like I'm probably not going to watch Apocalypse Now or some mass-destruction movie on September 11.

My basic view is this: No matter who you are, if you post a message like Tracy's, you're going to tick off a lot of people even if you're 100% in the right (which we all know opinions are neither right or wrong...right? ) You could be a nobody or you could be the President of the United States and people will still think you're a nutcase. Even if it's in your own newsletter there is something to be said for a well thought out message and opinions backed up by either fact or examples.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this but I think I'm done.

(edited for formatting)

--CT

 

[Dextolen]

While Mr. Hickman was a bit over the top, I echo some of his thoughts.

Products that promote/exhibit mature themes just debase the hobby. It was hard enought for some of us growing up with parents that flipped through the old 1st ed. books pointing at each exposed nip and demonic maw. I don't know if parents still do that kind of stuff but Dragon 300/BoVD will give them reason enough.

Further definition of evil within D&D is unneccesary to me, I have no need for any product that goes into lengthy detail on how to be "More evil". I don't plan on running evil campaigns and find that I can make opponents evil enough with the core rules, thank you very much.

And let's be honest, evil cult number 234-A4 lasts about 50 seconds in game time before they are cleaved, stacked and sorted by the adventuring party anyhow. I can only hope that the evil cleric can buff himself and get off a few spells before he meets (choose evil god) personally.

 

[Talaysen]

Ok...I don't have time to read through all the replies and see if all these points have already been addressed, but I'd like to say a few things.

First, we should keep in mind where this is coming from. A Mormon. A Mormon who lives in Utah. A Mormon who lives in Utah and has expressed very strong views on ethics and morality in fantasy role-playing. Tracy, I think you're a good, decent sort of fellow at heart - or at least you want to be. I really do. But I never expected folks like you to take this well. I think the Pope's a pretty good guy too. I don't think he'd like this book either.

That said - WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU THINKING?! You feel very strongly about this book, and that's great, but you do not, not, NOT NOT NOT call people TERRORISTS because they say something YOU DON'T LIKE! I agree with the people who say you owe the folks at WotC an apology. In fact, you owe them a hundred apologies written in longhand, and it still won't be enough. You talk about 9/11 but you obviously don't have enough respect for what happened and the people who died that day. You do NOT do something like this. You do NOT say something like this.

Now. I realize that some of the hype surrounding the BoVD has been distasteful, but I ultimately see this book as a guide to incorporating these VERY sensitive issues into your game - not a book which will tell players how to summon demons and conduct mass orgies. (Oh, they'll probably be able to figure out, but I don't think that'll be the intent.) Because you know what? Rape happens. Pedophilia happens. Drug addiction happens. In fantasy worlds, demonology happens and necromancy happens, and it is not pretty, but it can be used as a metaphor. Gaming has an immense amount of value not only as escapism but also as a medium through which one can transmit a social message and discover things about oneself and others.

For too long we've cast gaming as "kill the orcs, loot the bodies". When people make strides in other directions they're often told to shut up. It's past time that stopped. It's past time we started realizing that things have consequences, even in D&D, and even though this may sound odd - I think the Book of Vile Darkness will help with that.

I don't know if I'm really getting my point across here but...there it is, for what it's worth.

And on another note - I'm probably still going to have a look at Dragonlance 3E when it comes out. But it won't be because of Tracy Hickman. I don't deal with emotional terrorists.

 

[el-remmen]

Okay, you all are going to get one warning only. . .

If we want to discuss opinions on the effect of the BoVD on D&D and the community then go right ahead, because that is what the thread is about using Mr. Hickman's rant as a basis - but please refrain from bashing religions, other posters, Mr. Hickman himself and all other negative crap that is just going to drive this thread into the ground as it crashes and burns.

You all know the rules. Please follow them.

 

[Dr. Harry]

Overreactions

While I agree that Tracy's message was most likely written in the heat of the moment (after all, it was part of his own newsletter, sent to an audience he no doubt perceives as friendly and well-disposed to him), I think that many of the responses are ironically in the same vein.

It is impossible to read much of Mr. Hickman's work without noticing his strong sense of personal morality. (I consider this a good thing.) The examples of complex, well-written villains in books he has worked on do not contradict this, in that the evil characters, while conveyed with depth and detail, are never held up as anything to be emulated. The section in Dragon #300 had material for role-playing PC's commiting torture, luridly described pain (instead of relying on the more abstract 'hit point'), necrophilia, and rape. I do not consider myself a 'religious extremist' for finding the idea of PC's wallowing in the above throughly repulsive. This leads to the conclusion of Mr. Hickman's piece, which has been largely ignored (in many responses it seems that the fires of "righteous indignation" were burning to hotly by the to pay much attention what the newsletter actually said afetr the point the poster wished to attack).

What Tracy Hickman equated with terrorists were the prospective saditistic, torturing, rapists glorified as PC's. I agree with this completely. The point I feel he was trying to make was that characters made with the "mature" content are equivalent (or worse, if that's possible) to the terrorists. The question can be rephrased "Do you enjoy playing characters that glorify that moral attitudes of terrorists?" The fact that he received this on 9/11 is almost certainly what caused him to write his piece in this particular way. In this light, not only does his piece not deserve most of the condemnation it has received, but I, for one, am willing to endorse it.

I also agree entirely that the term "mature content" in incorrect and contradictory to the material found. While I have enjoyed and purchased much of Monte Cook's work, and while I have a good impression of him as a writer, I'm going to let BoVD go with my own misgivings at WotC's effort to make some of the worst anti-gaming paranoia an *official* product of D&D.

 

[Henry]

At the risk of sounding unmasculine, I must ask all of us here to TONE IT DOWN.

First, let's keep the personal attacks OFF. Ideas are game, the people behind them are not.

Second, let's please lighten up on graphic imagery. We've had enough of that today, too.

I'm not singling anyone out, but if you've crossed the line in this thread, you know it.

EDIT - thanks for backing me up, Nemm. You're fast with that post button. I've got some tricks to learn .

 

[Khan the Warlord]

The game is Bunnies and BURROWS, and it still has quite a bit of killing as you watch out for eagles and such.

Heres a link to the GURPS version: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Bunnies/

You can still find them on Ebay

LOL!

That is just hilarious and a strange coincidence -- I had no idea an actual game with a similar name was made.

Funny stuff.