Tracy Hickman's view of the Dragon #300 sealed section

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Re: Re: Terrorism????

Kibo said:

Post Quoted From Earlier In Thread Now Deleted

Okay, now THIS is offensive. Keep your predjudices to yourself, please. This is exactly the kind of post that gets threads closed.


Ashtal Edit: You did nothing wrong ... I'm just removing the content which had been removed. Nemm probably hadn't seen the quoting. :)
 
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Kibo said:


By accusing Tracy Hickman of slander, in writing, you have libeled him. (All the law I know I learned by watching spider-man).

It was a quick and hastily chosen word used when I meant to say "libel" or any of a number of others. How about "rude", "insulting", or "un-called for"?

I'm sure Mr. Hickman would understand my usage of the word, but if not, I hope my lawyers can in my defense.

:P
 

Grazzt and others:

Thanks for the pointer - I had actually caught it and was editing my post before 20 some odds posts racked up behind me. Noted in the original that he actually is LDS, still not appropiate for argumentation but not as bad as it initially appeared.

My point still holds and it seems like others concur: Poor taste? yes. Overreacting? Yes. Deserving of a lynching? No. Reacting in exactly the same fashion while denouncing him. Down right funny.
 

ruleslawyer said:

Tracy's post does concern me, though, since apparently we do have some self-confessed ultra-conservative gamers (Furn here, for example), who might be alienated by the issuance of products like BoVD. To those, all I can say is: Don't buy it.

Just to be clear on this issue- as I have said in other posts:

I am on a "wait and see" position on BoVD.

If it it contains im-"mature" content such as some of the work in Dragon 300. I will not buy it.

If it contains useful material to help my dm'ng, then I will be in line to buy it.

Monte Cook has never shown signs of using bad taste in his past products that I have purchased. He has only improved my campeign. I will give him the benefit of the doubt until the book is out.

FD
 

First, I have three points. Those points are not directly related to each other except by the fact that both points are about Mr. Hickman's complaint.

The first point is that the reference to 9/11 in the complaint is unwise. Not because a parallel can't be drawn between evil and evil, but because frankly the level of evil we are talking about here is of completely different levels. Making a reference to 9/11 does not clarify his position. Instead, it obfuscates it. Making a reference to 9/11 just gives people an excuse for missing the point. Even for people that are inclined to agree with him about his overall point, 9/11 is such an emotionally charged subject that any comparison between it and gaming is frought with difficulties. So just forget about the fact that Hickman begins his complaint with that overused word 'terrorism'.

Second of all, Mr. Hickman is not some innocent ignorent person unaquainted with evil, gaming, life, fantasy or writing. This is a guy who callaborated in the creation of most of the villians that are currently being voted on as best villain in gaming. To make a loose comparison, claiming that Hickman is some sort of pansy because he has strong moral convictions is like claiming Orson Scott Card (another author from the same background) is a pansy that is unfamiliar with evil and afraid to depict it. Those of you that are dismissive of him only make yourselves appear foolish. Maybe this wasn't his best written piece, and maybe you don't agree with him but no one has yet presented on this board anything like a rebuttal of his complaints. Instead, we see the same sort of mistakes made in this thread that you are so angry about in his editorial - emotional reaction, hyperbole, demonization, etc.

Thirdly, all that said, I pretty much agree with Mr. Hickman. There is no point in having an RPG supplement about 'vileness', I find the lust that exists for such material appalling. Labeling something 'mature content' does 9 times in 10 mean that the content is immature, base, purile, and so forth. Shock sells, but shock for the sake of shock is neither deep nor art and seldom wise. It is merely attention grabbing behavior, and a mature society should not condone it as valuable expression (although it should probably gaurd against banning it completely as well). Indeed it is Mr. Hickmans attempt at shock value by referencing 9/11 that I think upsets most people.

Yes, horrific things occur in history, and sometimes an author may even want to make (within his judgement) a blunt reference to that, but I often get feeling that there is a faction out there that just wants to revel in the vileness, that feels that one is not 'cool' unless one can out Herod Herod, that isn't satisfied until they can be graphically perverse and aren't sickened by it, and seriously loves celebrating evil as a thing to be immulated and even considered as a non-evil thing. It is against this faction that I think Hickman rails, and the suspicion that Wizards has stooped to catering to this faction and its beliefs because it would be short term profitable.
 

Holy smokes Batman, that piece above is about the most god awful piece of garbage I have ever seen. I understand outrage. I understand justice. I don't understand hate in this fashion. Help, help, mods?
 


Immaturity

Well, what could be more "immature" than Tracy's little rant, eh? They call it "Mature Content" because mature people can deal with it responsibly, Tracy. First of all, D&D is not a comic. Second, there are a LOT of ADULT comics out there (many of them much better than the typical superhero trash). I, for one, am overjoyed D&D finally stepped up to the plate and tackled mature themes. Many other RPGs and products have dealt with such themes for a long time. I say GIMMIE MORE! I'm sick of typical Disneyfied happy fantasy CRAP! (For an example of such, anyone may refer to Mr. Hickman's Dragonlance novels). Keep your morals to yourself. Everyone else has plenty of their own--like FREE SPEECH, for one. If you want to play "Winky Puke in Rainbow World" the RPG, feel free. Let the rest of us purchase and play what we want. Don't like the Book of Vile Darkness? DON'T BUY IT!
Sincerely,
Matt the Bastard DM
 

I have nothing to add in regards to Hickman and his Dragon Magazine/9-11 connection. If he enters a rant because of a magazine, the so be it: more power to him. I only have to look at the skyline whenever I go to work to be reminded, but that's only me...and a few million other New Yorkers.

I just want to point to out to those who are saying how this "change" is for the worse for D&D...well, to be honest, this "change" has already been going on in comic books...and television...and video games...and movies...etc.

Same complaints, same defenses, different mediums. Replace "Book of Vile Darkness" with "Grand Theft Auto 3", and it's pretty much the same words being spouted at the moment.

Personally, I have my own tolerances, and I keep them to myself. If I don't like something, I don't buy/watch it. If I feel I need to rant (and I mean a rant, not a discussion) about it...well, be prepared to be slammed for it. Hickman made his choice, and the consequences it entails.

Oh, and as usual with any thread that involves "Book of Vile Darkness", I just want to add the obligatory "the book isn't out yet". ;)

Well, off I go to try to do something more positive...like trying to help save Farscape... :D
 


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