Trailblazer clarifications: feint and uncanny dodge

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I was inspired to comb through the Trialblazer classes, inching through the barbarian right now.

Should the feint action (next attack against target, target denied Dex to AC) overcome uncanny dodge (character retains Dex bonus even if flat-footed or attacked by invisible foe)?

I was curious because the Pathfinder barbarian ability explicitly calls out that uncanny dodge is lost with a feint.

 

[GlassJaw]

I was inspired to comb through the Trialblazer classes, inching through the barbarian right now.

Should the feint action (next attack against target, target denied Dex to AC) overcome uncanny dodge (character retains Dex bonus even if flat-footed or attacked by invisible foe)?

Good question, although this isn't a TB-specific issue (applies to the SRD as well).

Anyway, I would say uncanny dodge does not help against feint. Uncanny dodge specifically states the conditions it counters.

From a simulationist perspective, uncanny dodge is akin to a "sixth sense" - it protects the character from being caught unaware. Feint is a character's ability to deceive. So a barbarian with uncanny dodge isn't being caught unaware, he just got faked out.

So you wouldn't be able to throw a dodgeball at the back of a barbarian's head but you could dribble a basketball past him with a fake.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I figured it was applicable to the SRD as well, though I figured you guys had an opinion on the matter

Uncanny dodge specifically states the conditions it counters.

It was the reading of the word "even if", instead of just "if", that gave me the double take when I compared with the PF version. To me, if it just said "retains Dexterity bonus to AC if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker", that would be giving a complete list of specific conditions.

But making it "retains Dexterity bonus to AC even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker" seems to cause one to read the list of "flat-footed" and "struck by an invisible attacker" as but a subset of examples of other conditions that are known to remove Dex to AC.

Then PF going as far as adding extra wordage that feint overcomes got my brain a whirl on it, "I wonder if the TB guys left it that way for a reason!" Ack!

I hate being a to-the-word rules lawyer. Sometimes I get the best of me.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Shooting from the hip here--

I wouldn't allow feint against Uncanny Dodge. Uncanny dodge trumps.

Let me actually read the rules and think about it.

 

[GlassJaw]

But making it "retains Dexterity bonus to AC even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker" seems to cause one to read the list of "flat-footed" and "struck by an invisible attacker" as but a subset of examples of other conditions that are known to remove Dex to AC.

But the original writers also specifically states those cases. They could have just as easily wrote "retains her Dexterity bonus whenever a condition occurs in which she would it."

Uncanny dodge could also have been worded with "such as": "retains her Dexterity bonus to AC, such as being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker".

And regardless of the wording, I don't think feint falls under the spirit of the rules that uncanny dodge was written for. Uncanny dodge says the character "can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so". Feint is a visual deception. Uncanny dodge protects against things that you wouldn't normally be able to see.

 

[GlassJaw]

I just found this with a little searching:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/166275-official-words-feint-uncanny-dodge.html

Uncanny dodge does not negate feint.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Uncanny dodge does not negate feint.

The funny thing is, I probably would have agreed were it not for the dodgeball example.

I'd rule in favor of Uncanny Dodge.

(It is a class feature, after all.)

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I guess where I can see feint overcoming uncanny dodge with Trailblazer is that Intimidate can be use to feint. Nothing about being unaware, the big bad ass flexed his muscles at your face and you flinched badly.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'd rule in favor of Uncanny Dodge.

Well I found the errata so now we don't have to worry about your "rulings".

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well I found the errata so now we don't have to worry about your "rulings".

I wasn't aware that I'd issued errata for Trailblazer.