TRAILBLAZER - PDF Release - Discussion/Questions/Errata

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm a bit confused. Is the 10 minute rest supposed to be the equivalent of a day's rest or not?

It depends entirely on whether or not you believe that the AP mechanic that is integrated into the Rest mechanic is a worthwhile method of limiting spellcaster power. You seem to fall on the side of "heavy handed and unnecessary" in which case, you probably don't need the Rest mechanic, either.

I suspect that if you're not on board for limiting the spellcasters in this way, you're not going to be on board the Rest mechanic either.

But I do think that if a spell is dispelled during a rest, its spell slot should be recharged. Fair's fair.

You're looking at this entirely from the side of the monsters recovering from the PCs spells. This is very easily hand-waved: don't let the monsters rest.

But your "Fair is fair," suggestion has mechanical problems. I think you want to keep the refreshing of the caster's spell slots tied to the caster's rests, and not have to keep track of where all his targets are and whether they are resting or not. That's... awkward.

I don't see why spells like fireball have to be restricted.

To limit spellcasters. Area of effect spells are highly asymmetric attack forms (from a melee-centric perspective) and extremely valuable in the economy of actions; fighters have nothing comparable.

It seems to me that your game would be best served by removing the AP costs for spells, removing rote/restricted/ritual designations entirely, and leaving the Rest mechanic-- if you want it-- with just class features and hit points.

Or maybe even just hit points. That's a very easy mechanic to deal with: 50% for free, another 50% for 1 AP.

Actually I'm not sure whether the "game breakers" with additional costs need to be further limited. I don't know if raise dead and divination need to be restricted. I think I'd put it in under GM discretion.

Everything is GM discretion. That's mentioned on the first page.

We have our recommendations and hopefully provide enough context for folks to make informed changes.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I hadn't realized that 4E "flattened" all the saves the way they did. I suppose it is not so bad if most characters have good Fort and Will and poor Reflex. Although classes which have access to Evasion would have an incentive to get good Reflex saves.

OK, I'm happy with the saves, now.

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A random idea: How about a magic item which improves the character's lowest saving throw? I'm thinking that a +2 to one save should cost about the same as +1 to all three.
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I like what you did with Gather Information: make it so that players can use any skill whose application they can justify (Persuasion, Profession, Intimidate, etc.). Gather information is special in that the benefits can be divided among the group- everybody potentially can find a different tidbit of information. I think to encourage skill diversity it is important to have skills which no more than one or two PC's need to possess. Not everybody needs to know how to track as long as somebody does. I think that my concern about skill monotony might have been overblown. Props to you.
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But I do think that if a spell is dispelled during a rest, its spell slot should be recharged. Fair's fair.

You're looking at this entirely from the side of the monsters recovering from the PCs spells. This is very easily hand-waved: don't let the monsters rest.

But your "Fair is fair," suggestion has mechanical problems. I think you want to keep the refreshing of the caster's spell slots tied to the caster's rests, and not have to keep track of where all his targets are and whether they are resting or not. That's... awkward.

Actually, I was thinking mostly of the PC's own buffs. If the wizard loses the magic circle against evil or mind blank hours before it was due to run out, he should be able to cast it again. But if he doesn't, he shouldn't. Otherwise he'll have six copies of the spell and be down only one slot.

You are right that I "want to keep the refreshing of the caster's spell slots tied to the caster's rests, and not have to keep track of where all his targets are and whether they are resting or not." I'm not sure what's awkward about it. Could you expand on this, please?

Area of effect spells are highly asymmetric attack forms (from a melee-centric perspective) and extremely valuable in the economy of actions

Yeah, I guess there has to be something to prevent the spellcaster from going nova at every encounter, and restrictions to the asymmetric attacks have to be part of the solution. I guess I have trouble drawing the line between spells like magic missile, which are rote despite affecting multiple targets, and spells like fireball, which are restricted. Where does scorching ray lie? I guess since its total effectiveness is constant it is like magic missile. Am I right?

It seems to me that your game would be best served by removing the AP costs for spells, removing rote/restricted/ritual designations entirely, and leaving the Rest mechanic-- if you want it-- with just class features and hit points.

Or maybe even just hit points. That's a very easy mechanic to deal with: 50% for free, another 50% for 1 AP.

It sounds like you are trying to say "let's agree to disagree." I don't think this watered down rest prevents the 10 minute adventuring day.

Let me think about this- I may eventually persuade myself that you are right.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I hadn't realized that 4E "flattened" all the saves the way they did. I suppose it is not so bad if most characters have good Fort and Will and poor Reflex. Although classes which have access to Evasion would have an incentive to get good Reflex saves.

OK, I'm happy with the saves, now.

Good.

A random idea: How about a magic item which improves the character's lowest saving throw? I'm thinking that a +2 to one save should cost about the same as +1 to all three.

As a fan of D&D Online, I think it's a great idea.

DDO has such items; and I gave out such items in our playtest.

Actually, I was thinking mostly of the PC's own buffs. If the wizard loses the magic circle against evil or mind blank hours before it was due to run out, he should be able to cast it again. But if he doesn't, he shouldn't. Otherwise he'll have six copies of the spell and be down only one slot.

I have an answer for you-- I'm sure of it-- but I'm not sure yet what you're asking.

Both of these spells affect a single target (though MCaE has an AoE emanation)-- so I assume you mean that the wizard is casting them on himself.

If the wizard sits down to rest, the duration on these spells will end. If he wants to get these spell slots back, he'll have to spend 1 AP. (Not per slot-- 1 AP refreshes all Restricted slots).

YES: This is an AP "tax" on the wizard. No disagreement with you here.

If the wizard wants to take advantage of the 10 minute rest, this is exactly the kind of thing he has to take into consideration when he's readying and casting spells. This is by design.

To sum up his options:

1) Do not take the short rest, keep your long lasting buffs, but don't get back any spell slots (nor any hit points, nor any thing else). You can stand around for 10 minutes and choose to "not rest."

2) Take the short rest, get back all your Rote spell slots, but don't spend an AP to get back your Restricted spell slots. Any ongoing spells will end. You could recast them with some of the Rote spell slots you just refreshed.

3) Rest, spend 1 AP, get back all your Rote and all your Restricted spell slots. You're down 1 AP.

4) Convince everybody to rest for a full day-- you get back all your slots for 0 AP. (This is the status quo rest mechanic.) This is a tough row to hoe; players tend to like the faster pace. Though it's pretty easy to convince the party to give you that 1 AP from the Party Pool.

Meaningful decisions.

You are right that I "want to keep the refreshing of the caster's spell slots tied to the caster's rests, and not have to keep track of where all his targets are and whether they are resting or not." I'm not sure what's awkward about it. Could you expand on this, please?

I should have said, "One wants to..." rather than "You." I meant it in counter-point to what you seemed to be suggesting.

Yeah, I guess there has to be something to prevent the spellcaster from going nova at every encounter, and restrictions to the asymmetric attacks have to be part of the solution. I guess I have trouble drawing the line between spells like magic missile, which are rote despite affecting multiple targets, and spells like fireball, which are restricted. Where does scorching ray lie? I guess since its total effectiveness is constant it is like magic missile. Am I right?

That's correct. You drew a perfect line.

In the library of 3rd party spells, there are bound to be lots more like that.

 

[Cheiromancer]

2) Take the short rest, get back all your Rote spell slots, but don't spend an AP to get back your Restricted spell slots. Any ongoing spells will end. You could recast them with some of the Rote spell slots you just refreshed.

If it was just the Rote spells that expired, this would be perfect. But mind blank and MCaE are not rote spells, not even when cast on oneself. Or are they?

Could you remind me again why long-duration spells are dispelled when you rest? Suppose a vampire has dominated your character. Why shouldn't it survive the next rest period?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If it was just the Rote spells that expired, this would be perfect. But mind blank and MCaE are not rote spells, not even when cast on oneself. Or are they?

No, they are not.

Could you remind me again why long-duration spells are dispelled when you rest? Suppose a vampire has dominated your character. Why shouldn't it survive the next rest period?

In my experience, when one of the party members is dominated by a vampire, either the spell, the vampire, or the party member expires before the day is out.

You could carve out exceptions for spells with durations longer than 24 hours, if it is essential to your campaign, and the extra-bookkeeping is therefore worthwhile.

We'll tackle individual spells soon.

 

[Cheiromancer]

But why do spells with durations of 10 minutes/level or longer expire at the end of a rest period? You've had good reasons for the other things I had misgivings about- I'm sure there's a good reason for this feature, too. What is it?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

But why do spells with durations of 10 minutes/level or longer expire at the end of a rest period? You've had good reasons for the other things I had misgivings about- I'm sure there's a good reason for this feature, too. What is it?

It's a trade-off on the accelerated rest. You're hitting the reset button on your status and effects, and compressing 24 hours of "spell time" into 10 minutes.

It might make more sense to you if you envision a campaign where the DM has chosen to set his accelerated rest to 1 hour or 8 hours, instead of 10 minutes (and yet still faster than the de facto 24 hours).

If he sets it to 1 hour, suddenly you would seek carve out an entirely new set of exceptions (any 10 minute/level spell for casters level 7+).

If he sets it to 8 hours, you would seek to carve out exceptions for 1 hour/level durations for casters level 9+.

The rest period is customizable by the DM; the shorthand compression of duration is for ease of bookkeeping. Even in the case of the 10 minute Rest, maybe the DM wants a rest to take 30 minutes every now and then.

In fact, that might be the easiest way to understand it: Don't think of the rest as any specific amount of time, 10 minutes, 1 hour, 8 hours, or otherwise. Think of it as the DM saying, "You have reached a point at which I will permit you to rest and recover spells, and for MY purposes at this specific time, this rest period lasts X minutes."

The rule is meant to be broad and sweeping so that DMs can tailor the specifics and use the same rule (or, at the very least, understand and use the intent).

There's definitely some "shadowy" areas of time involved here; note that the Rest mechanic doesn't change the amount of time it takes to heal normally, recover ability damage, conditions, diseases, the recharge of your daily-use magic items, etc. Time passes faster for "some things" but not "all things;" the intent is to speed along play with the least impact on verisimilitude.

You sound like you're happier with the bookkeeping. Note that the Rest Mechanic section is marked with an hourglass (Time) and a beer mug (Fun). If the 10-minute adventuring day is not impacting your Fun and you don't care about hand-waving away the passing of Time, it makes this entire section start to look extremely optional.

Me: I love it. I'm a hand-wavin' kind of guy. I don't want to track the durations of dozens of spells across the passage time periods both specific and indeterminate. I'll take the reset button, please, and get on with the adventure.

 

[Cheiromancer]

What do you think of the Pathfinder rule for specialist wizards? They can cast spells from their opposition schools, but it takes them two slots per spell.

edit: if I understand the reasoning behind the numbers of the "Spellcasting Ability" table on p.15 of the PDF, the bonus spell per spell level that a specialist gets is worth 2 feats. Since she has 2 opposition schools, each banned school must also be worth a feat.

It would seem then, that if a specialist wizard only wanted to take one opposition school, it would cost a feat. To have no opposition schools would take two feats.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

What do you think of the Pathfinder rule for specialist wizards? They can cast spells from their opposition schools, but it takes them two slots per spell.

I'm philosophically opposed to it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm wondering if the pathfinder rule has too little downside for the specialist wizard. More spells most of the time, but still retaining much of the flexible spell selection of a generalist wizard.