[TRAILER] Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
If they had blue pills for franchise fatigue, I'd eat the Alien one first.
Well, I actually kinda sorta like the Alien franchise.

The first three were all excellent in their own ways. And while I'm probably on the shortlist, I enjoyed both Prometheus and Covenant.

There was no fourth Alien movie. Ahem.

Better than the Terminator franchise, which had two great movies, and then ... meh.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
B. Boba Fett. Take an iconic character and kill him off stupidly.
Here, I shall start a minor battle: Boba Fett was not iconic. He was A CHUMP! He doesn't DO anything!

Boba Fett gets told to not disintegrate anyone. He then follows the Millennium Falcon, calls Vader when his target stops for a minute, and then picks up the carbonite Han-cicle and gets paid by Jabba the Hutt. He then is a hanger-on wannabe in a Hutt palace - which pretty much qualifies him as Sarlacc chow.

If he'd personally fought Han to a standstill, or otherwise actually acted to capture his targets, maybe. But his role could have been played by a bloody tracking beacon on the Falcon, but for the fact that Vader's people couldn't find their Sith with both hands. That's not iconic.

C. Failure of imagination. Something that would continue to bedevil Lucas, but ... "Hey, what should make the McGuffin in this film? How about the Death Star, again?" When people attack The Force Awakens for recycling, they really need to look at the worst, and first, example.
Um... perhaps you missed the theme that evil isn't terribly imaginative, and needs to compensate for something.

E. Plot was confusing and, frankly, stupid.
Space Opera is not known for coherence. It is known for melodrama.

F. Special effects over plot. Why is there lightning in the sword fight? Because lightning looks cool. And because Lucas could now do (somewhat) realistic lightning.
The real reason for lightning:

"Just like a Jedi to bring a laser-sword to a lightning fight. Oh, wait, that's right - you're a goody-two-shoes Jedi, and don't get to throw lightning! ZAPzapzap!"

G. EVEN THE MUSIC IS TERRIBLE!
Your suggestion, sir, that John Williams could and would have allowed anything other than excellent work to be placed on film would normally be grounds for a gauntlet slapped across your face, and a challenge of a saber duel at dawn. However, we will allow that your grief over the death of your Beloved Boba has clouded your judgement, and let it slide. For now....
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
I'm not 10 anymore, and there has been a huge cultural shift in the last forty years, so it's hard for me to get excited.

But I fully endorse other people's excitement, and encourage them to chase each other with toy lightsabers.
I actually like that opinion expressed there. That's probably a good attitude for many things I enjoyed when I was younger but do not anymore.

I cannot express just how much I like that opinion you stated. I think it could apply to many of the things seen to day.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Here, I shall start a minor battle: Boba Fett was not iconic. He was A CHUMP! He doesn't DO anything!

Boba Fett gets told to not disintegrate anyone. He then follows the Millennium Falcon, calls Vader when his target stops for a minute, and then picks up the carbonite Han-cicle and gets paid by Jabba the Hutt. He then is a hanger-on wannabe in a Hutt palace - which pretty much qualifies him as Sarlacc chow.

If he'd personally fought Han to a standstill, or otherwise actually acted to capture his targets, maybe. But his role could have been played by a bloody tracking beacon on the Falcon, but for the fact that Vader's people couldn't find their Sith with both hands. That's not iconic.
Look, Boba Fett always lived larger in the imaginations of fans than he did in real life (um, on the screen). But what you call being a chump, I call being the only bounty hunter able to successfully track Han Solo and bring him in.

And killing him like that was lazy. shrug Just like the rest of RoTJ.


Um... perhaps you missed the theme that evil isn't terribly imaginative, and needs to compensate for something.
Um, you mean s/evil/Lucas then you are correct.

But blaming obvious flaws in the writing by saying, "This unimaginably powerful force that has conquered the Galaxy is just stupid and has small genitalia" is .... not a great defense. It's like saying, "The reason that blowing up the giant Death Star that is orbiting Endor doesn't affect Endor is because SHUT UP."


Space Opera is not known for coherence. It is known for melodrama.
Yes, and when done well (ANH, ESB) that works great! And when done poorly ... not so great.


The real reason for lightning:

"Just like a Jedi to bring a laser-sword to a lightning fight. Oh, wait, that's right - you're a goody-two-shoes Jedi, and don't get to throw lightning! ZAPzapzap!"
Or, there have been a number of retcons to explain all of this, but the actual reason is because Lucas had a cool new effect. sigh

Your suggestion, sir, that John Williams could and would have allowed anything other than excellent work to be placed on film would normally be grounds for a gauntlet slapped across your face, and a challenge of a saber duel at dawn. However, we will allow that your grief over the death of your Beloved Boba has clouded your judgement, and let it slide. For now....
ANH: John William at the peak.
ESB: Imperial March

When was the last time you listened ... listened to RoTJ? What does it contribute that is DIFFERENT than the first two? Do you stan for Yub yub?
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
See, this is IMO the hottest take of all! Allow me to explain.

Anyone who claims that one of the movies in the prequel is the best Star Wars movie is obviously trolling. They are just trying to get a rise out of you, or start a conversation. Sure, maybe they might stan for Revenge of of the Sith, but no one seriously would claim it is the BEST Star Wars movie. And if they are talking about Attack of the Clone, you know they are straight-up trolling.

And the people claiming that one of new movies is the best movie? Well, they can make interesting arguments (newer, fresher, well-directed, special effects, whatever). Personally, I have "new" movies as 3 of the best 5 in my personal Star Wars movie rankings (see below). But not the best.

So why is listing Return of the Jedi as the best Star Wars movie IMO the hottest take of all?

Well, you're going back to the original trilogy, and choosing unquestionably the worst of all three of them. Allow me to explain:

ANH has flaws, like anything else, but it's also iconic in so many ways. Without it, there is no Star Wars. Period. Everything about Star Wars (incl. the iconic score and so much scene-setting) was established in ANH. So that's always a fine pick.

ESB, on the other hand, is the best "movie." It has the best direction, the best plot, the best acting (it's the only one where Hamill's nascent range matches perfectly with the material, which IMO gives it a slight edge over the amazing performance by Olivier in ANH) and is pretty much pitch perfect.

So what's wrong with Return of the Jedi?
A. Toy sales. As is well-known, Lucas made serous bank with merchandising. RoTJ is the first movie where, IMO, merchandising was more important than plot (ahem, ewoks). This is also what led to the change in direction for Han in ESB and many other questionable decisions moving forward (Lucas didn't want to ruin any toy sales!). So very many wrong decisions in Return were made for this reason. EVEN THE CHANGE FROM THE ORIGINAL TITLE (Revenge of the Jedi).
B. Boba Fett. Take an iconic character and kill him off stupidly.
C. Failure of imagination. Something that would continue to bedevil Lucas, but ... "Hey, what should make the McGuffin in this film? How about the Death Star, again?" When people attack The Force Awakens for recycling, they really need to look at the worst, and first, example.
D. Directing was terrible. After ESB, it's like, um, watching Phantom Menace. Lucas shadow-directed the film, and the main director (Marquand) had little experience. It shows. Heck, even the sets suck compared to the first two films.
E. Plot was confusing and, frankly, stupid. Instead of having one regular climax (see prior films) Lucas felt the need to have multiple climaxes staged at the same time, which made little sense plot-wise and made all of them unimportant. And no thought is given to the tone of the film, which is all over the place.
F. Special effects over plot. Why is there lightning in the sword fight? Because lightning looks cool. And because Lucas could now do (somewhat) realistic lightning.
G. EVEN THE MUSIC IS TERRIBLE!

I could keep going on, but you get the idea. Look, I'm not going to keep yucking on your yum; it's just a movie. But that's a scorching hot take that I don't think I've ever seen before!

Inarguable list of Star Wars movies, ranked:

1. Empire Strikes Back.

2a. The Last Jedi.

2b. A New Hope.

4. Rogue One.

5. The Force Awakens.

6. Going to any Star Wars movie with a friend who keeps asking you when Mark Ruffalo is going to turn green and smash things.

7. Return of the Jedi.

8. Having a recurring nightmare that George Lucas has invented time travel and is going to use it to improve your childhood by taking out all the icky bits and adding in more Jar Jar.

9. Revenge of the Sith.

10. The Phantom Menace.

11. Going into your attic and finding that all of your Star Wars collectibles melted in the heat into a large Jabba-like mass on top of your Millennium Falcon.

12. Caravan of Courage.

13. Battle of Endor.

14. Realizing that not only is Star Wars killing off all of the characters you grew up with, but that the actors that played those characters are dying too, and that they abyss you are staring into is staring back at you.

15. Holiday Special.

16. Solo (except Lando ... Lando is cool).

17. Getting into an argument about Han shooting first.

18. George Lucas’s proposed sequels that would have really explained midi-chlorians. Thank you, Disney.

19. Fully understanding that a space opera that you enjoyed for a few years in your youth and still appreciate to this day is not only nothing more than more corporate IP that Disney is using to take over the world and everyone’s brains, but is also the breeding ground for a peculiar and nasty strain of nerd-rage with a side-dose of toxic masculinity that frightens the hell out of you.

20. Attack of the Clones.
The Ewoks were good.

Boba was never iconic and is still completely overrated even in the context of the expanded universe material where he actual does stuff.

The movie makes sense, and is just as easy to follow as the others.

Literally the pivotal moment in Star Wars is Luke’s rejection of the Dark Side and refusal to kill Vader, thus winning by having faith in another person. It is the point of the entire franchise. Without it, Star Wars is merely a fun romp through space. Cool, but hardly important.

The climax is great.

It’s the best Star Wars movie.
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
Well, I actually kinda sorta like the Alien franchise.

The first three were all excellent in their own ways. And while I'm probably on the shortlist, I enjoyed both Prometheus and Covenant.

There was no fourth Alien movie. Ahem.

Better than the Terminator franchise, which had two great movies, and then ... meh.
I watched the 1st three on the beeb last night, I think Resurrection can really stand up as a RPG adventure, plus it has Ron Pearlman. The last couple were ok, but without a strong lead like Sigourney Weaver, they were lost, if they had been able to get Noomi Rapace back for Covenant, it would have been 100% better.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
I watched the 1st three on the beeb last night, I think Resurrection can really stand up as a RPG adventure, plus it has Ron Pearlman. The last couple were ok, but without a strong lead like Sigourney Weaver, they were lost, if they had been able to get Noomi Rapace back for Covenant, it would have been 100% better.
So, I continue to refuse to believe there was a fourth movie. I have this vague recollection of going to see some "Resurrection" movie at the theater when it came out, one that claimed to be part of the Alien franchise, and having such a visceral and intense dislike of it that I have excised that memory from my brain.

I think that the reason a lot of people were lukewarm to the last two is that they are, well, different than the earlier ones (esp. Prometheus). Personally, I consider that a strength. Not as good, but enjoyable. :)

And certainly much better than the constant reboots of Terminator!
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
So, I continue to refuse to believe there was a fourth movie. I have this vague recollection of going to see some "Resurrection" movie at the theater when it came out, one that claimed to be part of the Alien franchise, and having such a visceral and intense dislike of it that I have excised that memory from my brain.

I think that the reason a lot of people were lukewarm to the last two is that they are, well, different than the earlier ones (esp. Prometheus). Personally, I consider that a strength. Not as good, but enjoyable. :)

And certainly much better than the constant reboots of Terminator!
The cast of Resurrection was great, plus it's a Joss Whedon interpretation of the franchise, which is lighter in feeling than the others. Prometheus I like more than Covenant, though I like them both, I sort of don't care for the "Aliens are Everywhere" disease mode.

I liked the last couple of Terminator movies, though nothing can match the cheesy goodness of the 1st one ...
The Cheese Lifestyle.jpg
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
The cast of Resurrection was great, plus it's a Joss Whedon interpretation of the franchise, which is lighter in feeling than the others. Prometheus I like more than Covenant, though I like them both, I sort of don't care for the "Aliens are Everywhere" disease mode.

I liked the last couple of Terminator movies, though nothing can match the cheesy goodness of the 1st one ...
Cheesy goodness? Everything about the first one is amazing. That's just a stripped-down, amazing movie, from beginning to end. And one of the few movies of its time that still holds up (IMO).

Man, the early 80s were a rough time for cinema.
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
Cheesy goodness? Everything about the first one is amazing. That's just a stripped-down, amazing movie, from beginning to end. And one of the few movies of its time that still holds up (IMO).

Man, the early 80s were a rough time for cinema.
Rough? You mean like with ESB, T1, Aliens, Conan, The Thing, and The Road Warrior? To me it looks pretty awesome. All of those still hold up too; then again there are fine cheeses vs the more run of the mill horror, sci-fi, post-apocalypse varieties that could be super cheesy. Circling back on to the whole Star Wars, etc. franchises; they are technically great in production value, except the writing is meh. Watching Aliens last night, I loved how the music signaled the end of the movie before the last fight scene in the Sulaco's cargo bay, and then they spring it on you. It totally worked, even though I knew it was coming, and Sigourney Weaver's "Get away from her you bitch!" line is full of feeling; fine cheese indeed.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Rough? You mean like with ESB, T1, Aliens, Conan, The Thing, and The Road Warrior? To me it looks pretty awesome. All of those still hold up too; then again there are fine cheeses vs the more run of the mill horror, sci-fi, post-apocalypse varieties that could be super cheesy. Circling back on to the whole Star Wars, etc. franchises; they are technically great in production value, except the writing is meh. Watching Aliens last night, I loved how the music signaled the end of the movie before the last fight scene in the Sulaco's cargo bay, and then they spring it on you. It totally worked, even though I knew it was coming, and Sigourney Weaver's "Get away from her you bitch!" line is full of feeling; fine cheese indeed.
Yes, there are some truly great movies as you transition from the 70s to the 80s. But, again, the overall 80s (especially the mid 80s) tends to be a cinema wasteland. There are many more great movies in the 70s, for example. The main issue is that the movies tend to be very specifically dated, so that unless you have a nostalgia factor for it (grew up watching it) they aren't very good.

I'd also throw in, for example, Predator, Gremlins (the first two), GB (first one), Raiders, Blade Runner and Evil Dead.
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
I actually like Alien Resurrection FAR more than alien 3. Alien 3 is the one that should NOT exist.

I'd have preferred if they had gotten that reboot they wanted to do a few years ago where 3 and Ressurection never happened and it was a sequel to 2.

But HATED Alien 3. Dislike it to this day. Resurrection may not be a favorite, but at least it is watchable for me.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
I actually like Alien Resurrection FAR more than alien 3. Alien 3 is the one that should NOT exist.

I'd have preferred if they had gotten that reboot they wanted to do a few years ago where 3 and Ressurection never happened and it was a sequel to 2.

But HATED Alien 3. Dislike it to this day. Resurrection may not be a favorite, but at least it is watchable for me.
I couldn't disagree more.

Would it have been good if Fincher had a little more time, and a little less studio mismanagement? Sure.

Alien3 is not an easy film to like and it's a hard film to appreciate, but it's worth the effort to love.

It is the perfect return to the feel of the first film, while still undercutting and subverting audience expectations from the beginning to the end. It's not a haunted house; it's hell.
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
I couldn't disagree more.

Would it have been good if Fincher had a little more time, and a little less studio mismanagement? Sure.

Alien3 is not an easy film to like and it's a hard film to appreciate, but it's worth the effort to love.

It is the perfect return to the feel of the first film, while still undercutting and subverting audience expectations from the beginning to the end. It's not a haunted house; it's hell.
James Cameron's opinion of Alien 3
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
Yes, there are some truly great movies as you transition from the 70s to the 80s. But, again, the overall 80s (especially the mid 80s) tends to be a cinema wasteland. There are many more great movies in the 70s, for example. The main issue is that the movies tend to be very specifically dated, so that unless you have a nostalgia factor for it (grew up watching it) they aren't very good.

I'd also throw in, for example, Predator, Gremlins (the first two), GB (first one), Raiders, Blade Runner and Evil Dead.
If I ever forget thee oh Blade Runner ... That period was so brilliant, we're still in the afterglow, the whole thread is talking about Star Wars. It's faint praise that any movie could even be compared to some of those. I mean, Luv really is the best one, and that was the problem with BR 2049, it should have had more of her, and less of everything else (dream mashup: Luv3 is sent to the Covenant colony planet to collect the David/Walter synth); which is also sort of my critique of TLJ, where it seemed to lose focus, they are trying to hard to put too much into the time of the film.
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
I actually like Alien Resurrection FAR more than alien 3. Alien 3 is the one that should NOT exist.

I'd have preferred if they had gotten that reboot they wanted to do a few years ago where 3 and Ressurection never happened and it was a sequel to 2.

But HATED Alien 3. Dislike it to this day. Resurrection may not be a favorite, but at least it is watchable for me.
I like 3 & 4 both, except they both have one huge problem, how to live up to Alien & Aliens? It's impossible, those movies simply set the bar too high, I mean both are exceptional.
 

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