[TRAILER] Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
But hey, if you want to farm out your own critical faculties to someone else, I can't stop you.
How about we not accuse folks of intellectual laziness for having found someone who says what they may think better than they'd have put it themselves, hm?
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
How about we not accuse folks of intellectual laziness for having found someone who says what they may think better than they'd have put it themselves, hm?
I thought that was faster and more pleasant than saying, "Gee, that's an old point that is well-known to people that have discussed and thought about the Alien franchise for a long time, and has much more to do with the studio machinations regarding Scott, Cameron, and AvP than it does any considered judgment at the time; especially given the well-known demands that were made by the talent for Alien 3 that we are dancing around (aka, Weaver requiring a death scene). Moreover, the invocation of James "I hate other people's films, and have five wives ... Look they keep getting younger {insert inappropriate Matthew McConaughey in Dazed and Confused joke her}" Cameron, who has multiple wrong opinions about many subjects, as opposed to sharing your own, is usually a marker of something I'd rather not get into."

Better?
 
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Zardnaar

Hero
The Ewoks were good.

Boba was never iconic and is still completely overrated even in the context of the expanded universe material where he actual does stuff.

The movie makes sense, and is just as easy to follow as the others.

Literally the pivotal moment in Star Wars is Luke’s rejection of the Dark Side and refusal to kill Vader, thus winning by having faith in another person. It is the point of the entire franchise. Without it, Star Wars is merely a fun romp through space. Cool, but hardly important.

The climax is great.

It’s the best Star Wars movie.
Fett's iconic he's also in the cartoons and his action figure has been the most expensive collectible figure ever.

He also places highly in most popular SW character polls.

If you don't like him that's fine but arguing he's not iconic is silly IMHO.

He was also a big deal in comics, games etc. I had a Fett poster, he was on t-shirts as well.

It's the armor, I suspect he is a paladin though.
 
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trappedslider

Explorer
See, this is IMO the hottest take of all! Allow me to explain.

Anyone who claims that one of the movies in the prequel is the best Star Wars movie is obviously trolling. They are just trying to get a rise out of you, or start a conversation. Sure, maybe they might stan for Revenge of of the Sith, but no one seriously would claim it is the BEST Star Wars movie. And if they are talking about Attack of the Clone, you know they are straight-up trolling.
Actually, I'm not trolling but you believe what you want to believe because beauty is in the eye of the behold eh.

The dialogue between Anakin and Padem is cheesy,but that's what happens when you're flirting or even just talking to the girl you've crushing on for forever*. Oh,you thought the clone wars was about a war against evil clones or something expected like that? Nope, it's a war WITH clones. And we finally got to see what Yoda can do with a light saber in his prime. Now does this make it the best,well no, but it makes it my favorite.

* As a writer and someone who remembers that age it is cheesy when you're awkward around your crush and it's hard to make it NOT cheesy and not end up with don juan or Rico Suave.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Actually, I'm not trolling but you believe what you want to believe because beauty is in the eye of the behold eh.

The dialogue between Anakin and Padem is cheesy,but that's what happens when you're flirting or even just talking to the girl you've crushing on for forever*. Oh,you thought the clone wars was about a war against evil clones or something expected like that? Nope, it's a war WITH clones. And we finally got to see what Yoda can do with a light saber in his prime. Now does this make it the best,well no, but it makes it my favorite.

* As a writer and someone who remembers that age it is cheesy when you're awkward around your crush and it's hard to make it NOT cheesy and not end up with don juan or Rico Suave.
AotC does have its fans and that's perfectly fine.

The prequels were my first Star Wars for kids as well and they are mid 20s to 30 now.

Not sure if Lowkey is joking but his post was a bit much.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Actually, I'm not trolling but you believe what you want to believe because beauty is in the eye of the behold eh.

The dialogue between Anakin and Padem is cheesy,but that's what happens when you're flirting or even just talking to the girl you've crushing on for forever*. Oh,you thought the clone wars was about a war against evil clones or something expected like that? Nope, it's a war WITH clones. And we finally got to see what Yoda can do with a light saber in his prime. Now does this make it the best,well no, but it makes it my favorite.

* As a writer and someone who remembers that age it is cheesy when you're awkward around your crush and it's hard to make it NOT cheesy and not end up with don juan or Rico Suave.
So, a few things. I was making a point about someone (presumably well-versed in Star Wars, and all the movies) saying that Attack of the Clones is the BEST movie. Not a good one. Not decent. Not unfairly maligned. But the absolute BEST of all the Star Wars movies.

Now, I am open to those who say that the prequels take more grief than they deserve. They have excellent bits within them. And, to be honest, I think that despite some flaws, Sith and even Phantom can hang right there with Return of the Jedi (blasphemy, I know!).

So let's look at why I think it is nearly impossible to make the case that Attack of the Clones is the BEST Star Wars movie. In the same way that, for example, if someone is saying that Star Trek V is the BEST Star Trek movie I have to assume that they are making some sort of ironic, hot take joke.

Essentially, the prequel is the story of how Vader got his dark side groove on. The rest is just eye candy. So while there are a lot of background issues (Anakin's impulsiveness, chafing at training) and there is a clarifying moment (the finale with Obi Wan) there are really two SUPER IMPORTANT beats that absolutely have to be hit.

The first is the death of his mother. I actually ... don't have much of a problem with this. While I think it could have been handled better (and sold emotionally a little better), it's ... fine.

The second is his love for Padme. Which is why Attack of the Clone has to be a love story; without it, you can't fully sell the turn to the dark side (protecting Darth Sidious in the third).

So here's the problem. It's ... terrible, Look, I appreciate what you are saying (that this is how real teenagers act), but ... that doesn't work. Let's examine this-

First, the actors have no chemistry together. Hayden Christensen has been ... good... in other roles. Natalie Portman is amazing. But there is no chemistry on-screen between them. This is the little things, like body positioning, body movement, where the eyes go when the character isn't speaking that allow the audience to infer what the characters are feeling; it's how you "feel" the attraction between characters in a show or movie before it is explicitly revealed. This can be done through acting, and can be helped by directorial choices (blocking, lighting, camera angles and so on). There is NONE of that. The directing choices are often terrible in the prequels when it comes to emotional moments, and these are some of the worst; it's almost like you can hear Lucas thinking, "C'mon, explain the plot so I can get to an action sequence and sell some toys or something."

Second, the dialogue is terrible. I shouldn't have to reiterate that, but it is. Lucas is known for his bad dialogue. Back when he let others (Kasdan!) co-write, it was less of an issue. Heck, back when actors had a little autonomy because Lucas wasn't micromanaging ("I love you" "I know") it worked out. Here? No such luck.

Third, the plotting makes little sense. Okay, let's assume mini-Vader is a frustrated teen. That explains his buffoonery, bad dialogue, and bad acting (ahem?). But how can you explain intelligent, worldly Padme's reaction? I mean, she TELLS you because it's Lucas. But seriously? The sand bit ("I love sand!" "I hate sand!"). Or how about when she talks about loving democracy, and mini-Vader is all like, "Yo, fascism ... let's kiss!"

Ugh. It is so bad. Like, bad enough that recalling it right now is painful to me.

Which brings us up to the counterargument (I call this the "Umbran Maneuver" ...heh) - what if it's all planned? What if the Second Death Star is just what evil people do? What if Lucas wrote it just like this because he got in touch with his awkward, hormonal, youngling roots?

So, here's the problem with that; it doesn't work, at all. Lucas is not directing some Noah Baumbach, get to the real heart of it, indie-film. This isn't Eighth Grade or Lady Bird. It's not a mumblecore re-enactment of the travails of teenage lust with a more worldly woman.

It's a space opera. So even assuming this was a choice (and I can almost 100% guarantee you it wasn't, in the same sense that Wes Anderson and Quentin Tarantino tend to have different styles), then it was a completely inappropriate choice for this movie and this genre. It isn't an appropriate tone. So assuming it was a choice (it wasn't) it was the WRONG choice.


Now, all that aside, there are some neat bits in Attack of the Clones. But given that it utterly fails at its single most important task for the prequel trilogy, I find it very hard to see how it can be the BEST Star Wars movie.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Which brings us up to the counterargument (I call this the "Umbran Maneuver" ...heh) - what if it's all planned? What if the Second Death Star is just what evil people do? What if Lucas wrote it just like this because he got in touch with his awkward, hormonal, youngling roots?
Let us be abundantly clear: Repeating Death Stars can be seen as thematic. The "romance" between Padme and Anakin is trash, both in its writing and in the acting by Hayden Christiansen. Natalie Portman tries, she really does, but they give her garbage to work with.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Let us be abundantly clear: Repeating Death Stars can be seen as thematic. The "romance" between Padme and Anakin is trash, both in its writing and in the acting by Hayden Christiansen. Natalie Portman tries, she really does, but they give her garbage to work with.
I'm just kidding with you. ;)

...but re-using the Death Star in Return is .... a poor choice. If for no other reason than I once had a friend who had the interesting belief that the Return Death Star was actually the rebuilt ANH Death Star, a belief that he would expound upon loudly and vociferously in direct proportion to the amount he drank.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
...but re-using the Death Star in Return is .... a poor choice. If for no other reason than I once had a friend who had the interesting belief that the Return Death Star was actually the rebuilt ANH Death Star, a belief that he would expound upon loudly and vociferously in direct proportion to the amount he drank.
Hm. Interesting interpretation. I mean, it is a completely irrelevant interpretation - where they get the parts and materials really doesn't matter as far as the plot is concerned.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Hm. Interesting interpretation. I mean, it is a completely irrelevant interpretation - where they get the parts and materials really doesn't matter as far as the plot is concerned.


Hmmm... hard pressed to find the parts.


(Yes, I'm cheating a little to make the joke by using the new special effects, but it's not much better in the original)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Hmmm... hard pressed to find the parts.
Remember the resolution. The original Death Star is supposed to be, what, 100 km in diameter? That means each bright dot there is at least several meters across - and that's just the stuff glowing bright enough to see from hundreds to thousands or more kilometers away. Most of the mass of the thing can be in rather larger dark chunks, tens to hundreds of meters across.

Plus, just having the raw material floating around in space gives you a leg up over going down into a gravity well to get it. Basically, in blowing up, the original Death Star becomes its own little asteroid mining field.

Go in there with a couple (admittedly non-canon) Interdictor-class Star Destroyers, use their gravity generators to just scoop up the detritus, and you have yourself some high-grade recyclables.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Remember the resolution. The original Death Star is supposed to be, what, 100 km in diameter? That means each bright dot there is at least several meters across - and that's just the stuff glowing bright enough to see from hundreds to thousands or more kilometers away. Most of the mass of the thing can be in rather larger dark chunks, tens to hundreds of meters across.

Plus, just having the raw material floating around in space gives you a leg up over going down into a gravity well to get it. Basically, in blowing up, the original Death Star becomes its own little asteroid mining field.

Go in there with a couple (admittedly non-canon) Interdictor-class Star Destroyers, use their gravity generators to just scoop up the detritus, and you have yourself some high-grade recyclables.
"Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE had secretly begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star."

From the opening of Return.

We also know that is was larger and more powerful than Death Star Mk. I.

Anyway, I hate to Zardnaar the thread, but the canon (Aftermath: Life Debt, a 2016 book and therefore Canon or something under the Dinsney-fied rules) says that the remaining little bits o' Death Star were recycled by the rebellion into a space station where Alderaan was. Or something.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
"Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE had secretly begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star."

From the opening of Return.

We also know that is was larger and more powerful than Death Star Mk. I.
Yeah, that's all fine. I'm... not sure what the problem is. You said that using the death star twice was a bad choice, holding up your friend's misapprehension as support. You then also seem to point out exactly where the film makesr say that isn't the case. Which kind of means you seem to have dispelled your own point, from where I sit.

Your friend wasn't very attentive, and when drunk his logic gets weak. How, exactly, is this a major fault in the movie, and not in your friend's braincase and alcohol habits?
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Yeah, that's all fine. I'm... not sure what the problem is. You said that using the death star twice was a bad choice, holding up your friend's misapprehension as support. You then also seem to point out exactly where the film makesr say that isn't the case. Which kind of means you seem to have dispelled your own point, from where I sit.

Your friend wasn't very attentive, and when drunk his logic gets weak. How, exactly, is this a major fault in the movie, and not in your friend's braincase and alcohol habits?
le sigh

I was joking about my friend. Here, read this again:
"a belief that he would expound upon loudly and vociferously in direct proportion to the amount he drank. "

No? Still no?

The reason I think rebuilding the Death Star and using it again for the RoTJ was a very lazy story-telling choice is that it is, in fact, just that. It's like when Marvel uses a GIANT SKY BEAM! It's lazy.

There's, like, an infinite UNIVERSE of other things they could have done, but they went back to the same well. It was inspired in ANH, and it was tired in Return. Moreover, it retroactively invalidated the choices in ANH (that Death Star, that incomprehensibly powerful thing you blew up? Yeah, hold my beer, because we're doing the same thing, except this is bigger and more powerful.).

I'm glad it works for you, with the whole, "Evil people have small genitalia and must drive large SUVs Death Stars," but it doesn't for me.

PS- If it was "thematic" or "homage" it would be TFA; it wasn't, it was just lazy.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Remember the resolution. The original Death Star is supposed to be, what, 100 km in diameter? That means each bright dot there is at least several meters across - and that's just the stuff glowing bright enough to see from hundreds to thousands or more kilometers away. Most of the mass of the thing can be in rather larger dark chunks, tens to hundreds of meters across.

Plus, just having the raw material floating around in space gives you a leg up over going down into a gravity well to get it. Basically, in blowing up, the original Death Star becomes its own little asteroid mining field.

Go in there with a couple (admittedly non-canon) Interdictor-class Star Destroyers, use their gravity generators to just scoop up the detritus, and you have yourself some high-grade recyclables.
Interdictors are canon they were in Rebels. Along with Thrawn and TIE Defenders.

Still think the should have used the defenders in a movie maybe flanking Kylos TIE Silencer.

For whatever reason some people do have AotC as their favorite SW movie. Movies are just so subjective though. Some people just might not like the OT much just because if the hair cuts.

They're charming for us but if you're used to cgi old practical effects might look terrible idk.

I'm sure Ishtar has its fans somewhere.
 
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Sepulchrave II

Adventurer
lowkey13 said:
The reason I think rebuilding the Death Star and using it again for the RoTJ was a very lazy story-telling choice is that it is, in fact, just that. It's like when Marvel uses a GIANT SKY BEAM! It's lazy.
At this point, the idea of a tyrannical Sith Lord creating a giant weapon which blows up planets/stars/the universe has been recycled so many times in Star Wars movies, books, comics and video games that it's become rather an expectation. I'm not sure that its particular shape or configuration matters too much.

More than sixty Star Wars superweapons
 

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