Training Costs to Level Up

[LostSoul]

What do you spend GP on when you train to level up?

I'm thinking of adding training costs in my 4E Hack. Simply put, when a PC wants to level up, he'll have to spend an amount of GP based on his level over a week's worth of time.

The reason I want to do this is because I want to add in a cycle of play that involves PCs connecting and changing the game world as they do things that relate to adventuring. It helps provide a connection between what happens in every few seconds (combat, social conflict), every 5 minutes (exploration, looting), every 4 hours (overland travel and wilderness exploration), every day (healing, refreshing daily powers), every week (levelling up, retraining), and every month (reactions to your adventuring by NPCs, including increasing resources).

By spending GP - gained from fighting, searching, travelling back to town - I can have the amount of GP spent in town have an effect on town, binding everything together nicely.​

Anyway, I have no idea what all that GP is actually spent on. I could handwave it, but I'd rather not.

Tutors? I don't want to have a lot of high-level NPCs running around.
Carousing? How much wine can you drink when you have to spend 800 GP and the average family makes 2-3 SP a day?
Magical Reagents? That's fine, but I don't want to have an endless supply of reagents that are available for purchase in every town - I want the PCs to spend GP directly.
Tithes and Taxes? To whom? I want to run a game set in the lawless frontier, so there isn't a king or organized religion to give money to. (And it would be a bad idea to give money to warlords.)

Any ideas? I'm not wed to the idea that you have to spend GP, I just like the fact that it ties the different cycles of gameplay together. If you can think of something else that does this, I'd be happy to hear it.

One thing that jumps to mind as I write this - I could reduce the amount of GP awarded out by the system by a factor of 10. That might have some other nice effects on gameplay.

 

[shadzar]

One component is the as you play you learn that leads you to raising skills efficiency. While you may try some things that lead you to learn a new method, you do need someone to teach you that knows it to refine those skills.

4th is kind of hard with its power structure to not have NPCs to train these new powers. Someone would need to have the ability to help a PC refine it. Maybe one expense is traveling to a place that has the proper power to train a new one?

Otherwise you could use the method of "Those who can, do. Those who can't teach." So the person helping with the training isn't required to have the power, but is good at teaching it so that it may be refined. Nothing says that a non-level NPC can't just know a few high level things really well, but never go adventuring or doesn't have the ability to learn the lower level things, so removes them from being a high-level NPC.

Material costs, for training supplies, depending on what you may need. Using two [insert equipment item here] requires buying one, or a pair, to use to practice with. Learning to use a second sword, you wield two practice swords o you don't hurt yourself really bad with one or two of the real thing....

Permission to train? Maybe you need to pay for a license to get training form the local authorities? That costs for scribes, greased palms, etc to get the paperwork through so that if not done in a proper training facility it doesnt look to the local authorities that a fight is broken out and arrest the one being trained and the one doing the training, or attacking them. If not paper document, some sort of trinket to indicate you are training like a carved wooden medallion that grants permission for fighting to train.

Guild fees? While even the "lawless frontier" could have a local authority, does it have underground elements even in small doses that would want their dues for a higher leveled person in their area?

Really depends on if you want to turn it into a money sink without cutting treasure amounts, or want to make it into a roleplaying element to get the players to take part in something going on where they are. Like being able to lead to any number of plothooks form the stories told by the trainers, etc.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

I never cared for the training costs stuff. As you say, it usually costs too much. Also, if you've got more than one character of a given class, don't be surprised if one of them trains - then trains the other(s)! But mostly, expect the argument: "Then why are they called Experience Points?!"

 

[kitsune9]

Sure, there are quite a few mundane ways to justify the cost of training. Here's my examples:

Fighting type characters: Fighting characters need to purchase regular equipment such as fighting dummies, hire sparing partners (along with equipment to outfit them so they don't get hurt...much), targets and such. They also need the use of a training grounds which is likely to be the largest expense, because only lords and ladies have such land set aside to provide that service. They will need to rent this, because it is usually needed for the lord to have his own men trained there when not on patrol. Also, your fighting types aren't going to train with their magic items so they will buy and use mundane / practice equipment to continue to hone their skiils. This costs money as well.

Other fees can be the form of a skiff that the local lord will charge instead of forcing the PC fighter into conscription to fight against some other lord or evil monsters. Otherwise, if the PC fighter doesn't want to pay the skiff, he cannot use the training grounds and risks being conscripted into service.

Divine casters--they will train somewhat in their weapons, but that's only a fraction of their cost. Instead they must seek more wisdom from their diety/spirit. In order to do this, they must offer sacrifices (both mundane and magical), proper incense (expensive stuff), and must even invest in appropriate clothing / vestments as part of the clerical eccleisasty when one is attempting to commune to their god. This is different from the actual spells of commune or contact other plane, because this is a more meditative process and ritual in which the caster comes to their god in full piety and the god expects appropriate respect (i.e. expense). Now if you have gods where such wealth is shunned, then the divine caster spends their money aid to the poor, funding expeditions for other clerics to perform missionary work, and tithes to the shrines. Then the god/spirit will judge the caster worthy.

Wizards--wizards need access to a lab if they are going to research spells that they heard of, but haven't acquired. They are going to have to pay membership dues to libraries/arcane colleges to get access to new spells. Each level of spells is guarded and represents a separate set of fees that are more costly than the ones below.

Sorcerers or spontaneous arcane casters--if you play Pathfinder, sorcerers have bloodlines. Sorcerers will need to spend time and money to further their connection to their bloodline and learn more of its secrets. By delving into their bloodline, this could be access to a library to learn more about the bloodline in general or can be more ritualistic like the divine casters above, where they meditate, spend money on the proper items and incense and "delve within" to bring their bloodline to the fore and garner its power.

Rogues fight so some of their skills and expense is put as in fighting types above. However, they could also be spending their money to the local Thieves Guild or syndicate as a payoff to be left alone. However, if you don't want to go this route, then the rogues need to hone their skills picking locks, disarming traps, etc. so they need to hone in their skills by accessing a library and learn more about the different traps and locks, etc. They also hire a locksmith and engineer to provide them with various "dummy" locks and trap mechanisms that they practice on at their house. Also, to ensure that they are not disturbed, they rent out a villa or similar place so as to avoid having to answer uncomfortable questions when the cleaning maid at the inn finds all these things and reports to the local constable.

Now, all of these should be broken down so that individually, they are "common" and easily accessible, but altogether makes more a complex process. Here's the fighter example:

1. Rent training field
2. Hire sparring partners and outfit them with practice equipment
3. Buy practice equipment and dummy weapons. Buy target dummies.
4. Pay skiff to local lord

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

What do you spend GP on when you train to level up?

This seems punitive to the players, especially if it's 3.x or Pathfinder. The mechanical penalties for 4e are a lot smaller, but the campaign penalties are still there.

Jay Fighter, going from 5th to 6th level, has amassed enough XP. When told he still can't gain a level, he points out that when he reaches a high level, it's going to be incredibly difficult to find a trainer. That'll slow down his progression and take away one of the biggest rewards for adventuring.

And over the course of, say, 10 encounters, he's:

Killed a demon.
Took part in the killing of a dragon. The kind of training you get from being schooled by a higher-level swashbuckler doesn't really apply to dragon slaying.
Kill two wizards. It's not easy if you're a fighter. Also, hard to train in this. (Why should a wizard help you learn to beat them?)
Survived being clouted by a higher level fighter wielding a spiked chain.Lessons were learned! Then his friends stepped in to help. He got the final blow.
Bravely led a platoon of troops into a superior enemy position... and won. He got a medal and the duke was delighted.
Survived an assassination attempt that very night by sore losers from said defeated army.
Taken part in three duels. He won two and lost the other one... it was close.

But apparently he didn't learn anything. His attack bonus did not increase. He did not learn to dodge or parry any better. He doesn't get to increase his Dungeoneering skill by +1. His fellow adventurers won't even consider sparring with him or doing teamwork exercises.

The reason I want to do this is because I want to add in a cycle of play that involves PCs connecting and changing the game world as they do things that relate to adventuring. It helps provide a connection between what happens in every few seconds (combat, social conflict), every 5 minutes (exploration, looting), every 4 hours (overland travel and wilderness exploration), every day (healing, refreshing daily powers), every week (levelling up, retraining), and every month (reactions to your adventuring by NPCs, including increasing resources).​

Isn't there something else you could do to encourage this? (This isn't options, it's restrictions.)

Tutors? I don't want to have a lot of high-level NPCs running around.

Problem detailed above. Also, those higher-level tutors, why aren't they adventuring and pulling in even more loot?

Carousing? How much wine can you drink when you have to spend 800 GP and the average family makes 2-3 SP a day?

You can throw a bigger party than that, but unless you're enforcing lifestyle costs, expect PCs to become models of restraint when they're back in town. (Hint: people with enemies should stay sober!)

Tithes and Taxes? To whom? I want to run a game set in the lawless frontier, so there isn't a king or organized religion to give money to. (And it would be a bad idea to give money to warlords.)

I have a hard time believing that. There's always a local government. Of course, the PCs might refuse to pay... just picture heavily armed survivalists openly refusing to pay taxes in real life, though, and you'll see the problem. Also, rent.

One thing that jumps to mind as I write this - I could reduce the amount of GP awarded out by the system by a factor of 10. That might have some other nice effects on gameplay.

Look to the inherent bonus system.

Couldn't you just give them NPCs to regularly interact with and care about? And once that's starting, NPCs can give them quests. "Black marketeer: This crime lord is bothering me. Magic shop owner: the local noble kidnapped my daughter and turned her into a maid. Sage: I know where that demon might be going." Etc.​

 

[shadzar]

This seems punitive to the players, especially if it's 3.x or Pathfinder. The mechanical penalties for 4e are a lot smaller, but the campaign penalties are still there.

Jay Fighter, going from 5th to 6th level, has amassed enough XP. When told he still can't gain a level, he points out that when he reaches a high level, it's going to be incredibly difficult to find a trainer. That'll slow down his progression and take away one of the biggest rewards for adventuring.

And over the course of, say, 10 encounters, he's:

Killed a demon.
Took part in the killing of a dragon. The kind of training you get from being schooled by a higher-level swashbuckler doesn't really apply to dragon slaying.
Kill two wizards. It's not easy if you're a fighter. Also, hard to train in this. (Why should a wizard help you learn to beat them?)
Survived being clouted by a higher level fighter wielding a spiked chain.Lessons were learned! Then his friends stepped in to help. He got the final blow.
Bravely led a platoon of troops into a superior enemy position... and won. He got a medal and the duke was delighted.
Survived an assassination attempt that very night by sore losers from said defeated army.
Taken part in three duels. He won two and lost the other one... it was close.

But apparently he didn't learn anything. His attack bonus did not increase. He did not learn to dodge or parry any better. He doesn't get to increase his Dungeoneering skill by +1. His fellow adventurers won't even consider sparring with him or doing teamwork exercises.

AH, but did he hear a DING after that last accomplishment that granted him XP?

 

[Aus_Snow]

What do you spend GP on when you train to level up?

I'm thinking of adding training costs in my 4E Hack. Simply put, when a PC wants to level up, he'll have to spend an amount of GP based on his level over a week's worth of time.

If it's just a matter of sacrificing an arbitrary sum of gold, then why not just stick with that expenditure, and not bother with the details? I mean, if that's the important thing, 'n all. A "price" for leveling, as opposed to simulation of anything much.

One thing that jumps to mind as I write this - I could reduce the amount of GP awarded out by the system by a factor of 10. That might have some other nice effects on gameplay.

I can see the appeal.

It's probably the path I would go, given your situation, and decisions on this thus far.

 

[Lanefan]

Guild fees.

Just about every class - other than Ranger, perhaps - could easily have a guild, association, or whatever that the PCs are not only expected to belong to but are also expected to pay - handsomely - for a few services rendered now and potential services that may or may not be rendered in the future.

For Monks and all Cleric types this function is of course fulfilled by their temple and-or deity direct; if there is no organized temple, the "fees" are sacrificed in thanks for the knowledge received. Monks pay to their monastery.

For all Thief-Rogue types, Thieves' Guilds are notoriously greedy.

For Fighter types, a mercenaries' guild will suffice; here a warrior can get training, make contacts, etc.

Wizards are the easiest to relieve of spare cash. Magic guilds can charge for spells, knowledge, information, components, and any of a bunch of other things.

Race can enter into it as well. In Human lands, Humans are more likely to be able to find training, and cheaper, than Dwarves or Tieflings.

And at high level, when it becomes difficult to justify NPC trainers, have the characters able to "self-train" - this reduces the costs somewhat for warrior types but everyone else still has to pay guild fees, buy supplies, etc. In 1e I have them hit this point at or near name level, i.e. 9th in most cases.

The only thing to watch out for if you're running 3e or 4e is that unless you've slowed down the advancement rate they'll bump so often and so quickly they'll constantly be going back to town for training - you'll never get any extended period of adventuring in.

Lan-"this type of train has nothing to do with railroads"-efan

 

[MichaelSomething]

How about this; ask your players how they train themselves and give them an EXP award if it makes sense for you. EXP is the universal motivator!

 

[Starfox]

In 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and to a lesser extent 4E, gold is another variety of xp. To realize your potential as a 5th level character you not only need 10,000 xp, you also need 6.000 gp worth of gear (figures from memory). If you have 10,000 xp and 2,000 gp worth of gear, you're effectively level 4.5.

This means that for every gold piece you make the players pay for trivial things like training, they lose gold-power points. Which means you have to give that gold back to them or deviate from the power curve.

Now, this is a very gamist approach, but so was the initial question; after all leveling is a game mechanic and level-up doesn't really happen at discrete times. Levels are a game mechanic to describe character progress.

Of course a fighter is constantly practicing with his weapons, a wizard constantly experimenting with his magic, a cleric prays, and a sorcerer... enjoys life to the fullest? But these are background activities. If you want them in the foreground, replace the standard "meet at inn" adventure hook with "One day down at the sparring field, your old training partner Kurt (a good friend and sparring partner but he never excelled like you did) asks you to look into the matter of his mother-in-law being a possible vampire...

I you want training to cost gold, make it a part of living expenses. Training happens all the time, so it makes sense to pay it constantly in small increments.