Transform Troubles.

[Primitive Screwhead]

CR file..

I got it, thanks! The quick read over while it prints looks like this will be a good system to base the Transform from, as long as Upper Crust doesn't mind the flattery

I will do some reading and some numbers and get back to y'all

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Transform..

Okay, I spent some time this last weekend perusing Upper Crust's CR system, and I think it can be used as a good base for doing partial transforms as is.
His systems CR's are higher than Core, which works well for our purposes anyway.

====THIS IS A DRAFT CONCEPT!==== Just looking for a little steering before I get too far down this road.

What I am looking at doing is setting up enhancements for each [Creature] along the lines of the following. You need to purchase the 'Traits' before you can buy additional enhancements. You can only do a partial transform of one type.

A key principle I am considering is using CL as a base to calculate various aspects. Using the natural weapon damage table from UC's system, the average damage is the minimum CL for creating an effect of that size.

[Giant]
- Traits 1MP
- Powerful Build {per Half-Giant}
- Regeneration
....Reduction of this cost by 1MP for each element that can bypass it
- Natural Attack
....Rend, requires 2 Claw attacks, 1MP
- Natural Armor {Skin and/or Fur}


====
Enhancements:
Natural Attack Base 1MP
..One of your limbs transforms into a natural weapon. It deals damage based on your CL, {see Upper Crusts table for weapon damage}
....+1MP for Claw, weapon is considered one size bigger for damage.

Natural Armor
Skin 1MP, grants 1 + 1/8th CL
Fur/Bone, 2 MP, Grants 2 + 1/4 CL
Scales, 3MP, grants 3 + 1/2CL
Carapace, 4 MP, grants 4 + CL. Treated as wearing medium armor.
Construct/Stoneskin, 5MP, grants 5 + CL.

etc..
this is mainly from my head as I have yet to write much down.

What do y'all think about using CL in this manner?
Each [Creature] type would have access to different enhancements, an would have a higher cost based on breadth of capabilities.

We would need to codify the various enhancements that characters would tend to use.

In a semi related note, MOVE [AIR].. what manueverability rating does this grant?
..I ask because with Transform [Elemental-air] you get a Perfect rating. With other modes of flight, your rating will be based on your size {starting at Perfect for Tiny and stepping down a rating every 2 sizes larger} Trying to ensure that Transform [Outsider] wont step on the Move [AIR] too much

Thanks!.. and now its time for me to get back to work..I mena the stuff I get paid for

BTW, Welcome Back RW, hope your weekend off was enjoyable!

 

[Verequus]

Okay, I spent some time this last weekend perusing Upper Crust's CR system, and I think it can be used as a good base for doing partial transforms as is. His systems CR's are higher than Core, which works well for our purposes anyway.

Actually, his nick is Upper_Krust, with a 'k', after Krusty, The Clown. Also is his CR also ECL for the creature, which is on average for the monsters 1.5 times higher than the WotC CR - for dragons and ELH creatures even 2 times higher.

====THIS IS A DRAFT CONCEPT!==== Just looking for a little steering before I get too far down this road.

What I am looking at doing is setting up enhancements for each [Creature] along the lines of the following. You need to purchase the 'Traits' before you can buy additional enhancements. You can only do a partial transform of one type.

A key principle I am considering is using CL as a base to calculate various aspects. Using the natural weapon damage table from UK's system, the average damage is the minimum CL for creating an effect of that size.

Could you give some examples? Otherwise it is a bit difficult to understand, what you are after. But some questions:

-Are the traits going to cost always 1 MP? If not, how big is going the CR modifier to warrant a higher cost?
-In general, what is the cost relationship between the CR modifier and the required MP? +1 CR = 1 MP? Wouldn't it be more simple to say: "Pick anything from the list and pay the cost."?
-CL is Caster Level, right? Why are you going to scale the spells with the caster level? An important aspect of EoMR is, that the spells are independent from the caster level, which would you destroy with this approach. A simple "pay X MP and get these benefits" falls into this pattern.

[Giant]
- Traits 1MP
- Powerful Build {per Half-Giant}
- Regeneration
....Reduction of this cost by 1MP for each element that can bypass it
- Natural Attack
....Rend, requires 2 Claw attacks, 1MP
- Natural Armor {Skin and/or Fur}

Giant type has regeneration, natural attacks and natural armor? Not after my SRD. Or are these only examples?

====
Enhancements:
Natural Attack Base 1MP
..One of your limbs transforms into a natural weapon. It deals damage based on your CL, {see Upper Crusts table for weapon damage}
....+1MP for Claw, weapon is considered one size bigger for damage.

Why only one arm and not both?

Natural Armor
Skin 1MP, grants 1 + 1/8th CL
Fur/Bone, 2 MP, Grants 2 + 1/4 CL
Scales, 3MP, grants 3 + 1/2CL
Carapace, 4 MP, grants 4 + CL. Treated as wearing medium armor.
Construct/Stoneskin, 5MP, grants 5 + CL.

etc..
this is mainly from my head as I have yet to write much down.

What do y'all think about using CL in this manner?
Each [Creature] type would have access to different enhancements, an would have a higher cost based on breadth of capabilities.

We would need to codify the various enhancements that characters would tend to use.

If we would use my suggestion, this wouldn't seem necessary.

In a semi related note, MOVE [AIR].. what manueverability rating does this grant?

Look at the appropriate table in the Move Air section - there are the ratings listed with the required MPs.

..I ask because with Transform [Elemental-air] you get a Perfect rating. With other modes of flight, your rating will be based on your size {starting at Perfect for Tiny and stepping down a rating every 2 sizes larger} Trying to ensure that Transform [Outsider] wont step on the Move [AIR] too much

I think, that with so many traits and abilities overlapping will always happen. Take Water Breathing as example - you can gain it through Move Water or through Transform Animal (a fish). The costs should be similar with partial transforms, because the high costs will be with full transformations due to the high CRs.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Posting from work

Thats what happens when I try to post from work without any of the paperwork handy I hope UK doesn't mind the typo!

Yes, +1CR = +1MP.
I am looking at Caster Level {CL} for partial transforms based on two things, in game it reflects the casters ability to better merge his/her own form with aspects of a new one, and provides Transform an interesting difference from using Evoke to create the mechanical aspects of damage.

The Traits are per UK's page 3, ranging from 0 MP {Animal} to 2.5 MP {Ooze}. Giant is actually a +0, the only Trait they would gain is Darkvision.
The Enhancements poorly listed in my last post are examples. The MP cost of those Enhancements are a 'dammit, what did I write down on Saturday night for this?'

Two reasons for wanting to codify a list instead of just saying "Use UK's CR":
A] UK's system is atomized to such a degree that the difference between gaining Flight {Average} and Flight {Perfect} is 0.4 points. Given a rounding up of MP costs, why would a player ever chose Flight {Average}?
B] Each list of Enhancements can be tailored to the representative abilities of a forms type. In this manner, we can provide a semblence of balance between lists. Otherwize, why take anything other than Transform [Outsider] and [Dragon]? These two lists would provide virtually every option available.

Example.. ..um.. please remember this is still in draft form
Melee Monster Magic, as cast by a 6th level caster:
6MP Transform [Giant]
You gain two natural Claw attacks that are oversized and the Rend ability with those Claws. These Claws deal 2D6+Str Mod in damage. {Size Huge}
You also gain 3 points of Natural Armor. {2 + 1/4 of 6}
You also gain Darkvision {60'} and Giant Blood.

===And like I said, I am posting this before I get too far down this path and want to know if the concept of using CL like this should be abandoned.

 

[RangerWickett]

Honestly, Transform magic in EOM has drained my brain every time I tried to work on it. If someone else wants to officially work on a project for a Transform-focused EOM book, E.N. Publishing would gladly consider publishing it.

Personally, though, I'd encourage keeping the flavor and the mechanics a bit more separate. Transform should mostly be for changing shape of creatures and objects. If you want fast healing or regeneration, it should be a Heal spell. If you want stronger weapons, it should probably be an infuse spell. The same way that you cannot 'transform' the blood in a person's veins into acid (that would be an Evoke spell, not Transform), you shouldn't be able to use Transform to do the job of other spell lists.

 

[Verequus]

Primitive Screwhead:

The problem with using CL is, that isn't used much in EoMR for adjustments of spell effects. The Dispel Magic DC for a spell is dependent from CL (but not the spell itself), the Ritual Magic (which is somewhat strange, because with the MP limit = HD rule you can cast normal spells with more MP reliable than with Ritual Magic, if your caster level lacks) and... Hmm, I think there were other uses... Practically, the power of spell is measured in its used MP - how do you get enough MP and a MP limit high enough to cast the spell is irrelevant, so I'm against the use of CL in this case.

Personally, though, I'd encourage keeping the flavor and the mechanics a bit more separate. Transform should mostly be for changing shape of creatures and objects. If you want fast healing or regeneration, it should be a Heal spell. If you want stronger weapons, it should probably be an infuse spell. The same way that you cannot 'transform' the blood in a person's veins into acid (that would be an Evoke spell, not Transform), you shouldn't be able to use Transform to do the job of other spell lists.

With other words, partial transforming is for specialized spell lists, but full transformation along with the use of the entire CR is for Transform [Creature]? I like that idea - it gives the old lists new options. The only thing one needs to determine is then, how to translate the given range of WotC-CRs into UK-CRs - enhancements like Strong Creature aren't necessary, because the costs of those enhancements is already factored in. In this view, "1 MP = +1 UK-CR" is feasible.

 

[astriemer]

Primitive Screwhead:

The problem with using CL is, that isn't used much in EoMR for adjustments of spell effects. The Dispel Magic DC for a spell is dependent from CL (but not the spell itself), the Ritual Magic (which is somewhat strange, because with the MP limit = HD rule you can cast normal spells with more MP reliable than with Ritual Magic, if your caster level lacks) and... Hmm, I think there were other uses... Practically, the power of spell is measured in its used MP - how do you get enough MP and a MP limit high enough to cast the spell is irrelevant, so I'm against the use of CL in this case.



With other words, partial transforming is for specialized spell lists, but full transformation along with the use of the entire CR is for Transform [Creature]? I like that idea - it gives the old lists new options. The only thing one needs to determine is then, how to translate the given range of WotC-CRs into UK-CRs - enhancements like Strong Creature aren't necessary, because the costs of those enhancements is already factored in. In this view, "1 MP = +1 UK-CR" is feasible.

I also am in favor of using Transform for shape altering and full transformation and using the other spell lists for partial transform effects. I also like the cleanness of using the UK-CR to avoid having to guess what a creature's CR is for Creature Form (formerly Strong Creature) or when trying to figure whether they need the Strong Defenses enhancement.

Does this system (UK-CR) work for applying just a creature type by itself? For example, if I just want to assume the outsider creature type, can I use UK-CR?

My other question/statement with this option is that there are some abilities that aren't clearly covered by other spell lists. For example, how do I get a claw, wing, tail attacks for example (Create Nature elemental damage enhancement on my fist perhaps), or constriction, improved grab, pounce, powerful charge, rake, regeneration (fast healing is a modified form of enduring curing, but what converts normal damage to subdual), scent (though RW indicated that it could be acquired with scry special sense), swallow whole, or trample?