Transmutation Abuse

[gjnave]

Since discovering "Slimy transmutation" yesterday, I've been letting this power bounce around inside my skull.

Since the power turns the monster into a toad EVEN ON A MISS, what would stop you from using it on a difficult monster, having a party member race over to pick up the toad, and then throwing it off a cliff (end of battle)?

Sidenote: the transmutation even on a miss means that theoterically you (a level 1 mage) could even turn Vecna himself into a toad (of course you then suffer a miserable terrible ongoing death after he turns back).

 

[Incenjucar]

The same issues you have for just throwing the evil lich off a cliff? It's not like a scrawny pile of bones is going to be hard for the warrior to lift, weight-wise.

 

[boolean]

Because being turned into a toad does exactly two things:
1. You're dazed.
2. The only actions you can take are to move your speed or shift.

Your defenses, movement modes, ability scores, hit points, size, etc. are all exactly the same as they were before the spell hit you.

So, picking up frog-Vecna and throwing him off a cliff is almost as difficult as doing it to lich-Vecna. (It's slightly easier, because he grants CA and can't take any opportunity attacks you provoke during the attempt.)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

You can daze an opponent and prevent them from making an attack on a miss? Busted!

In 2e psionics I could do similar crap, and even without trying to break the game... I broke the game. That was more than 15 years ago, and that's a long time not to learn a lesson.

I think the power is in error, and it should be either banned, modified or not used until WotC issues errata.

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

Well, it's a daily, so one use per 4-5 encounters, so it's not going to be there every combat. And if the target takes any damage, the effect ends, and it ends anyway on a save.

So at worst on a daily you're getting 1 round of stunned on 1 creature that you probably shouldn't attack while transmuted because you won't know if it makes it's save or not until the end of it's turn, and even if you do attack it, you get the bonus for CA and nothing else and if you hit you automatically end the effect returning the beast to the fight.

Solos usually have bonuses to saves , so yes, you take the dragon out for 1 round, but then what? and how do you capitalize on that round? No stats change so throwing the creature over a cliff is no easier than doing so prior to this power's use.

So I think the question is, what combos or tactics would actually allow you to abuse this?

I think it's best against an elite with lots of minions/allies. Ignore him while he's a frog and weaken the others while he's busy trying to save.

--Z

 

[moxcamel]

Vecna is also immune to attacks by characters below 20th level, so even froggy Vecna has no worries against your 1st level mage.

 

[erf_beto]

Well, it's a daily, so one use per 4-5 encounters, so it's not going to be there every combat. And if the target takes any damage, the effect ends, and it ends anyway on a save.

Also, isn't Grab a form of attack? Even if it doesn't cause straight damage, it's bound to hurt froggie a bit.

If my DM says froggie turns back into vecna as soon as anyone touchs it, I wouldn't say otherwise...

 

[moxcamel]

Also, isn't Grab a form of attack? Even if it doesn't cause straight damage, it's bound to hurt froggie a bit.

If my DM says froggie turns back into vecna as soon as anyone touchs it, I wouldn't say otherwise...

I think the key in the "Slimy transmutation" power is "if it [the target] takes damage from any source, this effect ends."

On a successful hit, Grab reads: "Hit: The enemy is immobilized until it escapes or you end the grab. Your enemy can attempt to escape on its turn."

No damage, except perhaps to poor Vecna's ego. So no, I think any ruling that froggy turns back into Vecna on a grab would be erroneous.

 

[Incenjucar]

A grab wouldn't normally do any damage, no, so it wouldn't end the power. Neither would a bull rush.

 

[The Little Raven]

Vecna is also immune to attacks by characters below 20th level, so even froggy Vecna has no worries against your 1st level mage.

This.

A deity is an epic threat. It cannot be attacked by creatures or characters whose level is lower than 20th. It is literally beyond their capability to affect.