Trapfinding is an Anti-Ability

[Alzrius]

Sean K. Reynolds talks about this as part of the second half of his Fewer Absolutes article:

Disable Device: This is not a trained-only skill. If you have no ranks in Disable Device, increase the DC of all Disable Device checks by +10. {I may not have any ranks in Disable Device, but I know I could jam a lock (DC 10+10) if I had to; a toothpick or wires in the right place ought do it, it would just take me a few tries. I'd have a hard time sabotaging a wagon wheel (I'd need some tools to get that DC 15+10) and would have no chance disabling or resetting a mechanical trap (DC 20+10).}
Any character (not just a rogue) who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more can study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (along with her companions) without disarming it. {The +10 for untrained covers the added difficulty, no need to make this feature class-exclusive.}
Characters can disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the spell level of the magic used to create it. The spells fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle also create traps that a character can disarm with a successful Disable Device check. Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic traps against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details. {The +10 for untrained covers the added difficulty, no need to make this feature class-exclusive.}

Search: There is no class or race-based restriction on using this skill (no uses of the skill are limited to rogues or dwarves). {The DCs for tough traps, particularly magic traps, are high enough that only characters with Search as a class skill are going to have much of a chance of finding them at all.
Basically in core d20 there are two barriers to finding traps: the high DCs (which require a large skill point investment and mean that only the ranger and rogue have any chance of reaching them because they're the only two core classes with Search as a class skill), and the rogue restriction. As rangers and rogues are the only classes that have a chance of hitting those high DCs, the rogue restriction is basically a "rangers can't do this" rule, and that's lame. Is Aragorn unable to spot traps? Is prince Gwydion of Prydain unable to spot traps? Simply because they're rangers rather than rogues? I think not.
And we don't need to boost the DCs for non-rogues because they're already high as it is, and boosting them would be just another artificial barrier for the Search-cross-class character classes.}

 

[Thurbane]

It's called "niche protection".

It's the same reason nobody is allowed to be a better healer than a Cleric: it's not because healing is TOO MUCH FUN, it's that otherwise, they're worried nobody would play a Cleric.

Cheers, -- N

...and then they went and hosed all over the Rogue's trapfinding niche with the introduction of the Beguiler and Factotum, who both seem to be able to do a more efficient job of it than the poor old Rogue.

 

[green slime]

Don't know any players who elected to play a rogue for the disable device ability: I do know players, that, because of expectations, placed skill points in various skills. Most players elect to play rogues cause they like the sneak schtick. That is, Hide, Move Silently, sneak attack, and Open Locks. Disable Device is then just a means to an end, and not the end in itself.

Allowing others to disable device, opens the possibility of other characters being able to offer their services when the rogue says "I got a bad feeling about this one, I really don't want to do this."

I'd be more impressed with players playing the characters they want to play, rather than powergaming and metagaming, and arguing that the rogue "has to, 'cause we can't"

 

[irdeggman]

Don't know any players who elected to play a rogue for the disable device ability: I do know players, that, because of expectations, placed skill points in various skills. Most players elect to play rogues cause they like the sneak schtick. That is, Hide, Move Silently, sneak attack, and Open Locks. Disable Device is then just a means to an end, and not the end in itself.

I have gamed with several players who wanted a rogue who didn't sneak attack and preferred to be the trap finding/disabling investigative type of guy.

They also didn't like the variant rogue who gave up sneak attack for some fighter bonus feats since they didn't want to play a martial based rogue in the first place.

We have had several house-rule classes that are more merchant based to use instead of the rogue because of this.

 

[irdeggman]

Exactly. They already have Search and DD as class skills; they don't need some lame loophole ability to alert everyone to the fact that rogues can find traps.

So I guess the real solution is to then bump up the DC of magic and complex traps to the point that a rogue must place a huge amount of skill ppoints into the skill, thus preventing placing them into Move Silently, Hide, Listen, etc. so that they can do what the class was designed to do better than anyone else - find and remove traps. I mean if anyone can do it (and you can take 20 on a Search check by the way - so pretty much anyone would be able to find said traps with a few ranks or hig Int Mod).

I think 8 sp per level, skill tricks and sneak attack are plenty special. I also think that playing a rogue just to have someone in the party to disable traps is a horribly lame reason to play one.

How many people play a rogue only for that reason? I have never seen one. I have seen people play rogues because they want to be real good at that though.

Most traps can be survived by the party when properly laid out by approriate CR in the first place. Well those with d4 hit points always have trouble with anything dealing damage but they have other means to find and avoid those things in the first place. Spells work real well - acquire a wand and you don't even have to have the spell memorized or know it.

There are many ways to locate and bypass traps with high DCs - rogues can do it more efficiently which is the point of that trapfinding ability in the first place.

Any character can heal other party memebers, clerics do it more efficiently.

Any character can do damage to an opponent, warrior types (fighters and barbarians) can do it more efficiently.

And so on.

Actually, it's a great comparison. It's simple, concise and accurate.

Why not bring up the bardic knowledge issue then? Why give a class an ability that can mostly be done via regular skill checks or a general Intelligence check (can be used on any Knowledge skill to find out general information).

And as I pointed out there are many other ways to find/disable traps other than the trapfinding ability - so it is not an "only rogues can possibly do this" thing - it is more along the lines of "because of this, rogues are more efficient at this than others".

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

To be frank, I couldn't care less about protecting the rogue's trapfinder "niche" and I don't see why you seem so wrapped up in it. When I DM 3e, all skills are class skills for everyone except for Hide, Listen, MS and Spot just because they're so useful. Anyone can attempt to find any trap. And you know how many non-rogues have put ranks in Search and DD? Exactly zero. Even though I've eliminated Trapfinding *gasp* and given everyone the key to the trapfinding niche *loud gasp*, rogues are still the best class to fill the niche thanks to their number of skill points. I'm sure there are players who say "I want to be a trapfinder!" but I've never met one. If one ever plays in my game, well, they'll have options other than 'must take at least one level in rogue just to be able to play my character concept'.

So I guess the real solution is to then bump up the DC of magic and complex traps to the point that a rogue must place a huge amount of skill ppoints into the skill, thus preventing placing them into Move Silently, Hide, Listen, etc. so that they can do what the class was designed to do better than anyone else - find and remove traps. I mean if anyone can do it (and you can take 20 on a Search check by the way - so pretty much anyone would be able to find said traps with a few ranks or hig Int Mod).

The solution is to simply not require Trapfinding for the finding of traps.

And as I pointed out there are many other ways to find/disable traps other than the trapfinding ability - so it is not an "only rogues can possibly do this" thing - it is more along the lines of "because of this, rogues are more efficient at this than others".

Yes I realize there are other ways of finding traps, but they require spending money or spell slots. Trapfinding is an artificial limitation that says "only a rogue can find traps all day every day without preparation" even if a non-rogue has the appropriate and perfectly valid skill ranks.

TS

 

[irdeggman]

To be frank, I couldn't care less about protecting the rogue's trapfinder "niche" and I don't see why you seem so wrapped up in it. When I DM 3e, all skills are class skills for everyone except for Hide, Listen, MS and Spot just because they're so useful. Anyone can attempt to find any trap. And you know how many non-rogues have put ranks in Search and DD? Exactly zero. Even though I've eliminated Trapfinding *gasp* and given everyone the key to the trapfinding niche *loud gasp*, rogues are still the best class to fill the niche thanks to their number of skill points. I'm sure there are players who say "I want to be a trapfinder!" but I've never met one. If one ever plays in my game, well, they'll have options other than 'must take at least one level in rogue just to be able to play my character concept'.

Well in the perspective of your house-rules the logic is fine.

And I wouldn't want to play in that type of game, due to my preference for each class being more unique than a lot of the supplements tend to make them.

 

[Vegepygmy]

So I guess the real solution is to then bump up the DC of magic and complex traps to the point that a rogue must place a huge amount of skill ppoints into the skill...

What do you mean, "bump up" the DC? This is how the rules already are. I've never seen a trapfinder-type who didn't max out his Search and Disable Device ranks.

Given that only two core classes (ranger and rogue) have Search as a class skill, only one of them (rogue) has Disable Device, and the DCs for traps already insure that few if any members of classes for whom those skills are cross-class will bother to invest in them, trapfinding-as-niche-protection is essentially redundant.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Yes, what Vegepygmy said. In a RAW game, Trapfinding's only purpose is to be redundant.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Just offer Trapfinding as a feat for non-Rogues, if it bothers you so much. It IS a supposed class feature, though. So don't just give it out for free w/o giving the rogue something else in return.