travel for more than 10 hours?

[CapnZapp]

From page 261 of the 4th Ed PHB:

"Speed per Day: Player characters can sustain a
normal walking pace for 10 hours of travel a day without
tiring out. The Dungeon Master’s Guide explains what
happens if you travel for more than 10 hours."

This section doesn't seem to be anywhere in the DMG. So what would be a good 4E-ish houserule for walking more than the standard 10 hours?

I'm interested in something more specific than the "Lost in the Wilderness" skill challenge.

Do you get slapped on with a general penalty (an Exhausted-like condition)? Or do you make Endurance tests not to lose healing surges?

If you do skill checks, how often are they triggered? After walking 10 hours, yes, but then? After 20, 30... hours? Or after 12, 14, 16 hours?


Any suggestions welcome.

 

[CapnZapp]

Here's my own stab at solving this.


Edit: Because of several issues with Skill Challenges in general and mine in particular, I am reposting my simpler Endurance check based solution from below here too - I have concluded it is the mechanism I most want feedback on!

Pressing on - Forced March Endurance Skill Checks

Each hour, every character in the party must make a Moderate DC* Endurance skill check.
*) A Moderate DC is 9 + two thirds the level of the party or terrain (rounded down). An Easy DC is five lower, a Hard DC is five higher.

Apply a special Hours Passed penalty: -1 per hour for walking (above the first ten each day); -2 per hour for running. This penalty applies to all skill checks made while pressing on, not just Endurance (see below). An Extended Rest reduces this penalty by 10 (to a minimum of zero). If the Hours Passed penalty is more than -10 when you take an Extended Rest, that Extended Rest provide no other benefit other than reducing the Hours Passed penalty.

Failure means you lose a healing surge (but see below).

Success means you do not lose a healing surge, and you may assist one of your failing companions.

If you succeed on the Endurance skill check, you may assist a failing party member in one of the following ways:
Heal: Your Heal check can stand in for another character's Endurance check. (That is, make a Moderate DC Heal check. Success means the assisted character succeeds on his Endurance skill check after all.)
Nature (or Dungeoneering if below ground): Your Nature check can turn that character's Endurance check into an Easy DC one. (That is, make a Moderate DC Nature check. Success means the assisted character get +5 to his Endurance result, and might make the check after all.)
Perception: Your Perception check can "aid another". (That is, make a Easy DC Perception check. Success means the assisted character get +2 to his Endurance result, and might make the check after all.)
Endurance: You may take part of the assisted character's burden upon yourself (carrying that character for short stretches, helping him climb obstacles, and the like). Make a Moderate DC Endurance check. Success means you spend the healing surge in place of the assisted character.

Players are free to focus their assistance where it is best needed - if a companion fails his Endurance check by more than 7, for example, Nature/Perception can't do anything for that character. You decide which character to assist only after everybody have made their main Endurance checks, but before anyone roll their assisting skill check.

The only restriction is that two or more characters can't use the same skill to assist any given character. (You can get Heal assistance from one companion and Endurance assistance from another; but you can't get Heal assistance from both).

And to clarify...:
* A character whose Endurance check is turned from failure to success does not get to assist anyone that hour.
* If noone fails their Endurance check, no assistance is needed. If everyone fails their Endurance check, no assistance is possible. Simply move on to the next hour's checks (unless the party have had it, and decides to rest).

If you miss the way the more elaborate Skill Challenge (see below) additionally tells you when you stumble upon a monster and when you find shelter; an easy suggestion is to use the times the characters roll '1' and '20' on their main Endurance tests (not any voluntary assisting skill checks).

Whenever you roll a natural one; roll again. If you fail your Endurance check (unassisted) on this second roll that equals "combat encounter at level + 1".
Whenever you roll a natural twenty; roll again. If you make your Endurance check (unassisted) on this second roll that equals "secluded shelter; reduce the Hours Passed penalty by 2".


Zapp

PS. If you feel there's an awful lot of rolling, feel free to say rolls are made only every two or three or five hours. In that case, however, you should probably consider making each failed Endurance test lose two Healing Surges (or, for the longer periods, make everybody lose a Surge each).

 

[CapnZapp]

The original suggestion in this thread, my Skill Challenge, is this:

It's kind of a skill challenge, but not quite - I wanted the players to be in control of how many hours they press on, and not reduce it to a narrative conclusion. Comments welcome!

Pressing on - a Forced March Skill Challenge

Setup: You're trying to keep moving beyond your normal limits.
Level: Equal to the level of the terrain (or party, if you don't run a sandbox game where easy terrain remain easy regardless of party level).
Complexity: 4 but Special - essentially, the SC ends when the players want it to (by them stopping for the day).
Primary Skills: Endurance, Nature, Perception. If the party is traveling through the Underdark, replace Nature checks with Dungeoneering checks.
Experience Points: You do not get XP for simply pressing on or making a forced march.

Hours Passed Penalty: Roll every hour you keep up your pace.
- For walking, this means hour #11, #12... Each hour, you get a special cumulative -1 to your checks (so hour #13 you have a -3 penalty).
- For running, it means hour #1, #2, etc. Each hour, you get a special cumulative -2 to your checks (so hour #3 you have a -6 penalty).

Endurance (moderate DCs): At least two characters in the party must make Endurance checks each turn (each hour) to resist the debilitating effects of wandering in the wilderness and dealing with exposure to the elements. Any failed Endurance checks indicates that all members of the party lose one healing surge each, in addition to counting as a failure for the challenge.
Nature (moderate DCs): At least one character in the party must make a Nature check each turn (each hour) to help the group find its way through the wilderness, avoid natural hazards, and forage sufficient food and water for the period in question. A failed check indicates that all members of the party lose one healing surge, in addition to counting as a failure for the challenge.
Perception (easy DCs): You notice something that helps you better survive the trek. Using this skill doesn’t count as a success or failure for the challenge, but instead provides a +2 bonus or –2 penalty to the character’s next Endurance or Nature check.

A Moderate DC is 9 + two thirds the level of the Skill Challenge (rounded down). An Easy DC is five lower, a Hard DC is five higher. Don't forget the penalty for hours passed!

Procedure: Each turn, each character chooses a skill and makes the indicated check. In addition to any other consequences, the result counts as a success or failure for the skill challenge unless noted otherwise. Any given character cannot choose the same skill twice in a row. Some skills can't be avoided and must be selected by at least some party members each turn as indicated.

Consequence: When you reach five failures or ten successes, reset the score for the skill challenge and apply the following consequence. The skill challenge itself only ends when the players decide to stop their forced march.
Failure: The PCs stumble into a monster’s lair. This leads to a combat encounter at the terrain's level or higher.
Success: The PCs find a secluded place ideal for a rest (given the circumstances). If they only take a short rest before pressing on, reduce the penalty for hours passed by two. If they take an extended rest, in addition to providing at least minimal shelter from the elements, this spot might also bring a reduced risk of being discovered by any pursuers, a reduced risk for wandering monsters, and/or access to potable water as determined by the Dungeon Master.

Special: An Extended Rest resets the penalty for hours passed to zero. However, if the penalty for hours passed went above -10 before taking that Extended Rest, it provides no other benefit (much like the effects of too little sleep, see the PHB page 263). Effectively, you then need to take two Extended Tests in a row; subject to the normal restrictions on consecutive Extended Rests as noted in the PHB, page 263.

Ideas for Secondary Skills (the ones you can only select once):

Acrobatics/Athletics (Moderate): You help a fellow party member keep up, granting him or her a +2 bonus on his or her next check.
Diplomacy (Hard): You keep the party in good spirits, allowing you to reduce the penalty for hours passed by 2.
Nature/Dungeoneering (the one that isn't primary; Moderate): Like Perception, only with a higher DC.
Heal (Moderate): You patch up sores and blisters, allowing you to reduce the penalty for hours passed by 2.
History (Hard): You rack your memory for details on the region you are passing through. This counts as a success for the challenge, but History can only be used in this way once per five hours.

I can add that I'm using the errataed DCs as written. Yes, they're easy - but I have added a time-based penalty that means the checks become less easy as the hours go by. And if the heroes keep up their forced march more than ten hours (five if running), they lose the normal benefits of their Extended Rest (which can be deadly in itself)...

 

[CapnZapp]

(double post)

 

[ppaladin123]

Isn't in the DMG section on endurance checks?

 

[CapnZapp]

Isn't in the DMG section on endurance checks?

See http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...issing-dungeon-masters-guide-information.html

What do you think about my suggested mechanism for Endurance skill checks? Too lenient? Too harsh? Too many skill rolls? Too few? Or is it just right?!

 

[Quickleaf]

Capn Zapp, yep that section is missing even after being specifically called out in the PHB. I like your skill challenge approach! For those instances where you just want a quick resolution, here's my house rule based on drowning/starving.

FORCED MARCH
Normally a character can’t travel more than 10 hours in one day. An additional hour of travel requires a character to make a DC 20 Endurance check. Success buys the character another hour, while failure costs the character a healing surge. Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then DC 30, and so on. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level; at 0 HP the character collapses. A character cannot regain healing surges or hit points lost to a forced march until she or he takes an extended rest.

 

[Starfox]

Mt take on force marching from Endurance (4E - Hastur). This is more like jogging for hours on end than actually walking more hours in a day, however.


Force Marching

Characters skilled in endurance can move faster for longer periods of time, increasing the pace of travel. It can also cover other long-term strenuous tasks. In order to even try this, at least one character in the party must be trained in Endurance, instructing and motivating the others to keep the pace.

Force March: Part of a move action. At east one character must be skilled.

* DC: 10. For every 2 points of margin, you can keep going for one hour, with a minimum of one hour for a successful roll.
* Speed: Force marching is made at double normal speed when traveling overland.
* Coordinated Travel: A group can assist each other at this task. Each member makes an Endurance check; the high roller's check result is used, others can assist. The DC increases by 2 for each additional member of the team.
* Try Again: It is possible to keep going even after the time is up, but everyone who does so must spend a healing surge. This allows another check for force marching.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Capn Zapp, yep that section is missing even after being specifically called out in the PHB. I like your skill challenge approach! For those instances where you just want a quick resolution, here's my house rule based on drowning/starving.

FORCED MARCH
Normally a character can’t travel more than 10 hours in one day. An additional hour of travel requires a character to make a DC 20 Endurance check. Success buys the character another hour, while failure costs the character a healing surge. Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then DC 30, and so on. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level; at 0 HP the character collapses. A character cannot regain healing surges or hit points lost to a forced march until she or he takes an extended rest.

This really has the virtue of simplicity, which Zapp's versions lack. You could still use his various secondary skill check suggestions here to allow some helping of one character by another of course. But frankly I'd hate to have to explain to the players the more intricate set of rules and having them decide which skills to use and calculating out what would work best could make a forced march time consuming to run if you get too elaborate with it.

I'd suggest alternate skill uses all work the same, you can make a check using any DM approved alternate skill at the same DC as the Endurance check. Success allows you to mitigate one other character's failure during the same hour. So probably heal and nature/dungeoneering would be the main ones. You could also use Endurance this way with say a +5 to the DC but only if you have it trained and that would allow you to take the HS loss for someone else.

That just leaves resting. I would just require either an extra extended rest to recover the HS losses or alternately if the characters can find a secure shelter by some means when they decide to rest then that would count. So if the march ends at an inn or some place that is set up specifically as a base camp then once you get your extended rest in you're fully restored.

 

[CapnZapp]

But frankly I'd hate to have to explain to the players the more intricate set of rules and having them decide which skills to use and calculating out what would work best could make a forced march time consuming to run if you get too elaborate with it.

I trust you don't like using a full-blown skill challenge to resolve this then?