D&D General Travel In Medieval Europe

[Hussar]

@Faolyn - ok, let's run through these.

1. I'm sure that local areas patrol their local area. I could easily see lots of roads leading into each major center. Totally buy that. And, I'm sure there would be some connection between each local network. But, again, why would I send iron from the Nashkel Mines through Beregost (overland of course) and then take it overland to Waterdeep and not put it on a boat in Baldur's Gate?

2. Why do you think a boat is more expensive than walking? It certainly isn't. There are very, very good reasons you ship by boat and not overland. But, beyond that, what percentage of the population of, again, say Nashkel or Beregost, ever goes to Waterdeep in any fashion? Walking or by water? Would you expect a significant portion of the population of Beregost has traveled farther than Baldur's Gate? Heck, what percentage of the population of Baldur's Gate do you think has traveled to Waterdeep?

3. Sure, the trade road might be a collection of paths. But, if that's true, then your whole argument about large amounts of traffic heading north and south overland kind of goes out the window.

And, if I'm travelling form Calimport to Waterdeep, is there a reason I don't stop in Athkala or Baldur's Gate and get on a boat? Why am I walking the entire way? And, again, what percentage of the citizens of Calimport have traveled to any of those destinations? Do you think that the average person in Calimport has been to Waterdeep?

 

[Zardnaar]

Most riads weren't actually sealed. The Roman system was the exception not the rule.

Hell a lot of cities did t have paved streets.

FR it's the trade way not trade road.

 

[gamerprinter]

Celts had roads before the Romans did, though their's were built atop earthen levies with horizontal timbers as the road surface, and the local kings were responsible for ongoing maintenance of those roads. Common in wetland areas where roads are difficult to achieve at best without levies. Similarly old Russia had timber roads and streets, especially needed after the spring thaw when everything on the ground turns to mud. Some cultures had substantial roads, Rome wasn't exclusive, though improved engineering certainly.

 

[Hussar]

Oh, hey, I certainly don't mean that roads or overland travel didn't exist. I'm not saying that at all.

I am saying though, that overland travel in a D&D world would be far, far different than what we see in the real world. Particularly what we see in Europe where, pretty early on, you have absolutely no threats to travelers other than, well, other travelers. Like I said, traveling by foot through England or France in the 15th century might not have been 100% safe, of course. But, I'm going to take a stab and think it's a heck of a lot safer than traveling between Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate where you have lots and lots of things that think that people make tasty snacks.

Which, honestly, is the point I've been (very badly) trying to make all the way along. We don't really take that sort of thing into account when world building. We tend to build worlds where it's sort of broadly assumed that if you could do it in 15th century England, you could do it in D&D Land. And that really tends to fall apart.

I mean, heck, it's true that naval travel would be incredibly dangerous in a D&D world. Absolutely. But, the idea that overland travel would be any safer isn't really accurate either. There are at least as many threats on land as there is on water. Travel in D&D Land would be incredibly dangerous. Heavily armed caravans and well armed ships should be the norm. Massively walled towns with multiple moats and standing armed forces should be the norm. But, we tend to gloss over all of that because, well, we want our fantasy Theme Park.

 

[Tonguez]

. Heavily armed caravans and well armed ships should be the norm. Massively walled towns with multiple moats and standing armed forces should be the norm. But, we tend to gloss over all of that because, well, we want our fantasy Theme Park.

Um we do see massively walled towns and armed caravans in DnD. Waterdeep and Baldurs Gate have walls and magic. Isnt that the whole point of PC adventurers being hired as guards or investigating attacks?
A quick google of the Sword Coast turns up “The Baldurs Gate Merchants league that promoted safety on the caravan routes throughout the region surrounding the city.”

And the Seven Suns Trading Coster, a coalition of merchants who merged their caravans for safety and offered transport to other merchants.
And“ Costers were companies that gathered smaller merchants together to form temporary or permanent alliances focused on safety and protection while traveling. Typical services provided included wagons, beasts of burden, guards, guides, and warehouse space.”

 

[Hussar]

Um we do see massively walled towns and armed caravans in DnD. Waterdeep and Baldurs Gate have walls and magic. Isnt that the whole point of PC adventurers being hired as guards or investigating attacks?
A quick google of the Sword Coast turns up “The Baldurs Gate Merchants league that promoted safety on the caravan routes throughout the region surrounding the city.”

And the Seven Suns Trading Coster, a coalition of merchants who merged their caravans for safety and offered transport to other merchants.
And“ Costers were companies that gathered smaller merchants together to form temporary or permanent alliances focused on safety and protection while traveling. Typical services provided included wagons, beasts of burden, guards, guides, and warehouse space.”

And yet, town after town isn't walled. Phandelin for example. Greenest. Nashkel. Beregost. Nary a wall to be seen.

And, one more time, wouldn't most of the goods be traveling INTO places like Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep and then being bought and sold there to be then shipped to parts further on by ship?

Again, why is someone mining iron in Nashkel and then taking it overland to Waterdeep?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm pretty sure that the Roman Empire built roads as a public good (in some sense of that phrase), at a net fiscal cost to the state. To the best of my understanding, the roads weren't paying for themselves in virtue of tolls they generated or even taxes levied on the trade that they may have generated.

And the public good the Roman Empire acted on, as I understand it, was not that their roads would make small-scale local trade viable. It was that roads permitted the imposition of imperial administration and the projection of imperial power. In this respect Roman roads seem to bear some resemblance to Britain's maintenance of its navy, which depended heavily on indirect taxation levied within Britain, not on the navy having to generate sufficient revenue to pay for itself.

It isn’t especially important whether the Roman govt built roads for one purpose or another.

The roads were used to more safely and reliably trade with settlements with a week or so travel of your own, and occasionally to larger settlements further away. That they also make it easier to project power and control territory only strengthens the point that the Sword Coast Tradeway isn’t especially difficult to believe.

I don’t understand how we keep going from, “here’s a list of interested parties who would contribute to upkeep of the many roads that make up the Tradeway, and some basic reasons they’d do so” to “this one specific reason by itself wouldn’t justify the maintenance of the entire Tradeway” or whatever weirdly specific thing.

Like can we have a thread where just talk about travel in D&D worlds and how to make it fun using cool things from history?

Is that really so much to ask?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Um we do see massively walled towns and armed caravans in DnD. Waterdeep and Baldurs Gate have walls and magic. Isnt that the whole point of PC adventurers being hired as guards or investigating attacks?
A quick google of the Sword Coast turns up “The Baldurs Gate Merchants league that promoted safety on the caravan routes throughout the region surrounding the city.”

And the Seven Suns Trading Coster, a coalition of merchants who merged their caravans for safety and offered transport to other merchants.
And“ Costers were companies that gathered smaller merchants together to form temporary or permanent alliances focused on safety and protection while traveling. Typical services provided included wagons, beasts of burden, guards, guides, and warehouse space.”

This, and also…the supernatural threats just aren’t that common. We can know this, because society is pretty healthy and small farm communities prosper for hundreds of years without walls of significant military force and lone travelers are canonically extant.

That doesn’t make FR a “theme park” it just means FR isn’t monster world.

 

[Bohandas]

It was a silly joke. For the most part, I've found that religion doesn't play a promiment role in D&D. Which is odd for a game with clerics, gods, and all sorts of supernatural forces. Oh, sure, there's evil cultist, and even gods directly meddling in the affairs of mortals. But religion? Not really. At least not in my experience. D&D is oddly secular.

I think it's the direct meddling by real deities that makes it secular. It's the same as the tonal difference between a fire and brimstone sermon about Sodom and Gomorrah versus a matter-of-fact documentary about the atomic bombings at the close of World War II

 

[gamerprinter]

Well on the discussion regarding overland vs. sea travel, consider Dal Riata, an Irish kingdom based in Ulster (Northern Ireland), but because overland travel is so difficult over mountainous terrain, it was easier to get in a boat and go around to the other side of Ireland rather than going over it to get from one place to another. Dal Riata is a kingdom that while based in Ulster actually held the Isle of Man, as well as the western isles of Scotland and southern Scotland. At least the initial Scottish nobles were actually Irish lords of Dal Riata. Dal Riata existed centuries before and up to the Roman invasion of Great Britain. So there was an Irish kingdom that stretched across Irish sea, rather than ruling over other kingdoms of Ireland - it was easier to rule that distance across the sea vs. overland...