Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

[buzz]

This is great stuff, Quas!

However, it's to be expected that you'll see disagreement. No group played 1e or Basic exactly the same, much less uniformly by the book. If anything, early D&D tended to be a starting point that was then drifted hither and yon in service of the whims of the group.

That said, I think that the as-written analysis you've demonstrated shows that a lot of common thinking about the "good old days" is just plain wrong. At least, one can't converse productively until everyone involved has complately lain out how "their D&D" played.

Thanks again for your work!

 

[Raven Crowking]

However, it's to be expected that you'll see disagreement. No group played 1e or Basic exactly the same, much less uniformly by the book. If anything, early D&D tended to be a starting point that was then drifted hither and yon in service of the whims of the group.

Quoted for truth.

That said, I think that the as-written analysis you've demonstrated shows that a lot of common thinking about the "good old days" is just plain wrong.

Quoted for WTF?

What Q's analysis shows most, IMHO, is that your first point is correct. As a correllary to your first point, your second point cannot be demonstrated that easily.

RC



Oh, yeah, IME, we never used the gp = xp rule, and PCs stopped to train when they were done with what they were doing. So, they'd clear the moathouse, tally XP, and then train. As the above QFT quote shows, YMMV, and probably does.

 

[Emirikol]

Fascinating assessment. It brings back memories..sad ones knowing that I can't ever play those scenarios again...

jhj

 

[Quasqueton]

A return thanks to everyone who has thanked me for doing this. It is good to have one's effort appreciated, enjoyed, and/or found interesting.

Quasqueton

 

[Lanefan]

I'd be interested to see how others who did use training played modules. Did you leave to train? If so did you go back to the dungeon? And if you went back to the dungeon where its denizens prepared for your return?

Depended entirely on the situation. If there was somewhere nearby where training could be done, sometimes just the PC's who needed training left while the rest kept an eye on things; other times, the whole party left and returned as a unit, to a dungeon that may or may not have restocked in the meantime. If the adventure was isolated/off-plane/whatever such that training was impossible, we just kept going. That said, our system allowed a PC to still gain ExP while untrained (though if you left it too long, an increasing ExP penalty kicked in; your advancement eventually ground to a near-halt but would never stop completely).

Side note: we also had (and still have) it that if a character wanted to forego the whole idea of training right from the get-go they could, but all advancement was at half-rate...this provided a simple mechanic whereby someone living in isolation, for example, could still slowly gain levels.

Lanefan

 

[Quasqueton]

AD&D1 - Against the Giants - The Steading of the Hill Giant Chief

Entering the AD&D1 Giant Series.

Against the Giants - The Steading of the Hill Giant Chief by E. Gary Gygax

AD&D1 party begins at: (161,968 xp each)
Fighter 8
Paladin 7
Cleric 8
Magic-User 9
Illusionist 9
Thief 10

D&D3 party begins at: (41,250 xp each)
Fighter 9
Paladin 9
Cleric 9
Wizard 9
Illusionist 9
Rogue 9


Total gp value: 252,675 gp

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 380,420 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
D&D3: 84,835 xp

Total magic treasure:
+3 battle axe
+3 spear
+3 shield
+2 war hammer
+2 giant slaying sword (x4 vs. giants, intelligent Neutral Good)
+2 arrows (x11)
+1 flametongue (intelligent, Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good, detects gems [types and number])
+1 flametongue (intelligent, Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good)
javelin of lightning (x5)
scarab of insanity
adamantine chain (teleports users to frost giant adventure glacier)
potions: extra healing, hill giant control, healing, poison (x2), storm giant strength, delusion, water breathing (x4)


AD&D1 party finishes at: (225,371 xp each)
Fighter 8
Paladin 8
Cleric 9
Magic-User 9
Illusionist 10
Thief 11

D&D3 party finishes at: (55,389 xp each)
Fighter 11
Paladin 11
Cleric 11
Wizard 11
Illusionist 11
Rogue 11

The AD&D1 party averages level 9.2, and the D&D3 party averages level 11. 1.8 levels difference. At this point, the AD&D1 cleric and illusionist join the thief at "name level".

Just for class comparison interest, the xp required to get from 9th level (name level for most classes) to 10th level in AD&D1:
Fighter 250,000
Paladin 350,000
Cleric 225,000
Magic-User 115,000
Illusionist 75,000
Thief 50,000

Quasqueton

 

[Enkhidu]

Quas, I can't for the life of me remember how far you got in the other thread. Did you get all the way through Q1?

And thanks for the repost - this is good info.

 

[MerricB]

So, I will continue listing the data as I have. Polls here on ENWorld show that most people never used the “measure of challenge” or the training rules in actual AD&D1 play. (I also have read that Gygax, himself, did not use those rules – MerricB, do you have a link to those statements?) Although polls on ENWorld shouldn’t be taken as universal fact, it does show me that most people here find the data in line with their real/actual play experiences.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=984260&postcount=316

"When the PCS gained their XPs mainly through adventuring, active combat, spell-use, thieving, exploration and the like I didn't usually require any extensive training, often allowing them to assume they trained "on the job," so as to goin a level immediately.

"Only when an adventure brought a great windfall of XPs so as to make a sudden jump in level possible did I demand that the PCs stop adventuring and find mentors to train them. That happened about once every three or four level gains even with my best players.

"Above a certain level, say 15th or so, who is around to train such PCs. In that case an enforced period of self-study was directed for the PCs in question." - Gary Gygax.

Cheers!

 

[Quasqueton]

AD&D1 - Against the Giants - Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl

Continuing the AD&D1 Giant Series.

Against the Giants - Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl by E. Gary Gygax

AD&D1 party begins at: (225,371 xp each)
Fighter 8
Paladin 8
Cleric 9
Magic-User 9
Illusionist 10
Thief 11

D&D3 party begins at: (55,389 xp each)
Fighter 11
Paladin 11
Cleric 11
Wizard 11
Illusionist 11
Rogue 11


Total gp value: 626,058 gp

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 948,640 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
D&D3: 160,332 xp

Total magic treasure:

hammer of thunderbolts
+3 frostbrand longsword
+3 chainmail
+2 giant slayer bastard sword
+2 dagger
+2 bolts (x11)
+2 plate mail
+2 shield
+1 battle axe
+1 shield, +4 vs. missiles
+1 shield
heavy crossbow of speed
ring of three wishes
ring of invisibility
cursed scroll
ring of fire resistance
armor of vulnerability
potions: healing (x3), poison (x2), fire resistance, dimunition, polymorph self, frost giant control, cloud giant strength, delusion, extra healing, storm giant strength, human control, oil of slipperiness, speed
box of holding
necklace of missiles (5 beads)
iron horn of valhalla
pearl of wisdom
Nolzur's marvelous pigments (x8)
scroll of protection from magic
scroll of protection from elementals
wand of cold (16 charges)wand of paralyzation (45 charges)
magic-user scroll spells: crystal brittle, energy drain
cleric scroll spells: cure serious wounds


AD&D1 party finishes at: (383,477 xp each)
Fighter 9
Paladin 9
Cleric 9
Magic-User 11
Illusionist 10
Thief 11

D&D3 party finishes at: (82,111 xp each)
Fighter 13
Paladin 13
Cleric 13
Wizard 13
Illusionist 13
Rogue 13

The AD&D1 party averages level 9.8, and the D&D3 party averages level 13. 3.2 levels difference. All the AD&D1 characters are now name level.

Quasqueton

 

[WayneLigon]

Personally, I never knew anyone who used this rule -- I wouldn’t use it today, either. But then I also still wouldn’t use the training rules either. Such rules in AD&D1 really just made xp and leveling logistics too tedious and aggravating.

So, I will continue listing the data as I have. Polls here on ENWorld show that most people never used the “measure of challenge” or the training rules in actual AD&D1 play.

In over 20 years of playing all three previous editions (OD&D, 1E, 2E; I cannot say that I ever knew anyone to run the Moldavy editions; those were considered 'old' once 1E came out and I never saw them played), I never seen anyone use those restrictions either.

Ironically, until this week, I'd never heard of the 'measure of challenge' stuff in 1E. If you killed an orc you got like 10xp, regardless of how tough it was to do so.

I never knew a GM who split XP up with henchmen. They fought, sometimes, but only PC's ever gained XP.

Also, I've never, ever seen people get XP for treasure or gold found. Ever. As in, not even once. Those columns might as well have not existed in the DMG. The only XP we ever got was for killing things, or, later on, for solving particularly knotty problems if you had a nice GM or one who ran a lot of non-combat stuff.