Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)
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Quasqueton
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AD&D1 - Against the Giants - Hall of the Fire Giant King
Continuing the AD&D1 Giant Series, to the last lair.
If we add in the 10% bonus for prime requisite ability score(s) above 15, the paladin, cleric, and illusionist would gain a level.
Quasqueton
Continuing the AD&D1 Giant Series, to the last lair.
The AD&D1 party averages level 10.5, and the D&D3 party averages level 15. 4.5 levels difference.
If we add in the 10% bonus for prime requisite ability score(s) above 15, the paladin, cleric, and illusionist would gain a level.
Quasqueton
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I'd heard of it, but never used it.
We didn't use henchmen that much - but I would do the split if it happen.
XP for gold was definitely part of my experience. I detested 2e removing that rule and not giving a proper guideline as to its replacement.
(Q. - please note the Gygax quote a few posts back you were asking for!)
Cheers!
Baron Opal
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Fighting giants is hard
One thing that I would like to throw out there is that the levels for the D&D3 party are rather appropriate given their environment. We see the party at 9th for the Steading, 11th for the Rift, and 13th for the Hall. I would say that this is even at the lower level of survivability for characters in this environment, translated to 3rd edition.
I ran a translation of the Steading for 15th level characters under 3.0. It was easy for them, but they still took a beating at the end. I guessed that after the fact a party at 12th level, again at 3.0e, would be the optimal starting level for a challenging game. It would be tough to run the Steading with a party of 9th level characters.
One thing that I would like to throw out there is that the levels for the D&D3 party are rather appropriate given their environment. We see the party at 9th for the Steading, 11th for the Rift, and 13th for the Hall. I would say that this is even at the lower level of survivability for characters in this environment, translated to 3rd edition.
I ran a translation of the Steading for 15th level characters under 3.0. It was easy for them, but they still took a beating at the end. I guessed that after the fact a party at 12th level, again at 3.0e, would be the optimal starting level for a challenging game. It would be tough to run the Steading with a party of 9th level characters.
Quasqueton
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Yes, I saw it. Thanks much for posting it.MerricB said:
***
Regarding the “drow item” notation in the Fire Giant adventure: I identified these items because they are “special” cases. They will lose power and corrode over time, outside of the underdark, but so long as the party delves into the Depths of the Earth after the drow, the items will work just fine. So, for the rest of this series of adventures – Descent to the Depths of the Earth, Shrine of the Kuo Toa, Vault of the Drow, Queen of the Demonweb Pits – those 3 suits of +5 chainmail, that +4 mace, and all the other +1, +2, +3, and +4 stuff can be used by and fully functional for the PCs. But, technically, they aren’t truly “permanent” items.
Quasqueton
Quasqueton
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Looking at the data for this iconic AD&D1 adventure series:
Below AD&D1 “name level,” the PCs were gaining levels at about a [AD&D1] 1:1 [D&D3] ratio.
After AD&D1 “name level,” the AD&D1 level advancement started slowing down, while the D&D3 level advancement stayed about the same rate, something like a [AD&D1] .5:1 [D&D3] ratio.
Quasqueton
Below AD&D1 “name level,” the PCs were gaining levels at about a [AD&D1] 1:1 [D&D3] ratio.
After AD&D1 “name level,” the AD&D1 level advancement started slowing down, while the D&D3 level advancement stayed about the same rate, something like a [AD&D1] .5:1 [D&D3] ratio.
Quasqueton
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
On the surprisingly rare occasions when a PC in my game bothers with a hench, the hench (usually) gains half ExP if-when it finds itself involved in an encounter. I say "usually" because on the very rare occasions when the hench's contribution is critical (e.g. luck of rolls where hench can't miss while boss is flailing away at nothing) it'll get full ExP.WayneLigon said:
That said, how often do people find henches being used in their games?
Lanefan
Lanefan said:
In my experience we used them rarely, often much more of a hassle than they were worth, again IME. We often fought not to get those pesky apprentices and followers. I realize that for others they were quite common.
What you describe is what I've experienced and used for henchmen counting as 1/2 people for xp unless they are kept in the back/protected then nothing for henchmen. When we did use henchmen losing one was awful, (1) playing good aligned character's we felt we had some responisibilty to them so heal spells were used on them, (2) people back in town ask questions when they don't come back, then there is the wereguild, and name-calling, then you were unlikely to get more
unless they were the scum of the earth; and then they would stab you in the back at the first chance. Never good in IME, so we angled for trained war dogs and mules. With a druid to talk to animals some trained dogs can be quite good..."What is it boy? Timmy's trapped in a well? No, oh you smell a demon from hell! Time to run."Montague68
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Interesting data, but not really surprising.
IME the main three variants from 1st ed AD&D "by the book" campaign modules to homebrew adventures were:
1. No xp for gold
2. Reduced treasure handed out.
3. More "realistic" treasure - i.e. no Gem of Seeing inside an Ankheg gizzard, no orc grunts walking around with 200 gp gems.
Nobody wanted to run a Monty Haul campaign, so invariably a DM would run a module, get to the treasure part and raise an eyebrow and mutter to himself "That can't be right..."
The problem, if there really was a problem, was that DM's would alter their adventures as above but not compensate in other areas. This indeed made progression in the 1E games I played in much slower than today.
IME the main three variants from 1st ed AD&D "by the book" campaign modules to homebrew adventures were:
1. No xp for gold
2. Reduced treasure handed out.
3. More "realistic" treasure - i.e. no Gem of Seeing inside an Ankheg gizzard, no orc grunts walking around with 200 gp gems.
Nobody wanted to run a Monty Haul campaign, so invariably a DM would run a module, get to the treasure part and raise an eyebrow and mutter to himself "That can't be right..."
The problem, if there really was a problem, was that DM's would alter their adventures as above but not compensate in other areas. This indeed made progression in the 1E games I played in much slower than today.
Quasqueton
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AD&D1 - Descent to the Depths of the Earth - Descent to the Depths of the Earth
Delving into the Underdark.
The descent adventure is ~90% low- to mid-level enemies. Bugbears, troglodytes, trolls, and most of the drow are just worth 0 xp for the 15th-level D&D3 party, but still add up enough (with their treasure) to keep the 9th- to 12th-level AD&D1 group advancing a little.
The Descent to the Depths of the Earth adventure module [D1-2, which includes Shrine of the Kuo Toa (not yet included in this data)] says, on the cover, "An Adventure for Characters Levels 9-14." This closely matches the levels this party came out of the Giants series at, (levels 9-12). The Vault of the Drow adventure module says it is for levels 10-14, and that is probably what this group will be when they reach that adventure. So it seems that Gygax pretty well figured the level gains an AD&D1 party would be making through these adventures. And that makes sense, since he ran these for his personal campaign, and saw them run through tournaments.
It should be noted that the descent adventure was designed to have a lot of random encounters along the way. But random encounters are just that - random. So I didn't/couldn't include them in this data. The above numbers are just from the set encounters.
Quasqueton
Delving into the Underdark.
After the descent down to the "doorstep" of the kuo toa's shrine, the AD&D1 party averages level 11.2, and the D&D3 party averages level 15 (still).
The descent adventure is ~90% low- to mid-level enemies. Bugbears, troglodytes, trolls, and most of the drow are just worth 0 xp for the 15th-level D&D3 party, but still add up enough (with their treasure) to keep the 9th- to 12th-level AD&D1 group advancing a little.
The Descent to the Depths of the Earth adventure module [D1-2, which includes Shrine of the Kuo Toa (not yet included in this data)] says, on the cover, "An Adventure for Characters Levels 9-14." This closely matches the levels this party came out of the Giants series at, (levels 9-12). The Vault of the Drow adventure module says it is for levels 10-14, and that is probably what this group will be when they reach that adventure. So it seems that Gygax pretty well figured the level gains an AD&D1 party would be making through these adventures. And that makes sense, since he ran these for his personal campaign, and saw them run through tournaments.
It should be noted that the descent adventure was designed to have a lot of random encounters along the way. But random encounters are just that - random. So I didn't/couldn't include them in this data. The above numbers are just from the set encounters.
Quasqueton
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