Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

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Storm Raven

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Again, we come back to the question of reasonable error. In order for the 1e modules to be played up to full potential, a lot more behaviors and variables must be assumed than for the 3e modules. For the 3e modules, you just have to assume that all encounters are satisfactorally dealt with. Making a comparable assumption in 1e may not even get you the kill XPs because of the potential for loss. To net the other XPs for treasure, even more assumptions of timing, thoroughness, and transport capacity must be made.

Well, the problem with worrying about this element is multifold. First off, the amount of treasure "hidden" in modules has been shown to be a fairly small portion of the total. The amount of trasure shown to be incredibly cumbersone and difficult has been shown to be almost trivial (if you look back at the horde used as an example from G3, the 15,000 pounds of copper and silver amount to only about 3,320 gp value out of a horde with total worth of 206,000 gp - less than 1.5% of the total). So the only thing you are left with that might have a significant impact is the assumption that the PCs will lose out on XP due to training, but since Gygax has asserted he never played using those rules, it is unlikely that TSR assumed others would either.

And the issue here is that the modules aren't being assumed to be played optimally, at least insofar as the XP calculations go. The calculations explicitly exclude XP for magic items, which even if not sold, amounts to a huge chunk. The PCs could literally miss a quarter of the monsters and treasure in an adventure and still come up with as much (if not more) experience as listed in the examples due to the gain from magic item XP. If the examples assumed that the PCs would play through the adventure optimally, then the XP calculations would be much higher, and the 1e PCs would advance even faster than they are shown to be doing.
 

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Raven Crowking

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Again, we come back to the question of reasonable error. In order for the 1e modules to be played up to full potential, a lot more behaviors and variables must be assumed than for the 3e modules.

This is true.

It is also true that, if we can only go by texts, then we have to assume that the training rules, search time rules, wandering monster rules, healing rules, etc. were in force.


RC
 

Raven Crowking

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First off, the amount of treasure "hidden" in modules has been shown to be a fairly small portion of the total.

You keep saying this, but this is untrue.

First off, it presupposes that your definition of what "hidden" means is a valid one.

Second, it presupposes that the single module you allowed for is a large enough sample to be statistically significant. The second module examined, you dismissed the significant amount of "hidden" treasure (although you agreed it was hidden) on the basis that the PCs would "have to" find it to get to the next adventure in the series. This in itself presupposes that the DM has no other means of getting the PCs to that region, and that the DM is unwilling to allow them to fail (and simply not go there).

Likewise, your sample set for cumbersome treasure is limited, which you need to assume to be of statistical importance to draw the conclusions you do.

Finally, you need to assume that Q's offset (his not including magic items) is equal to the offset for suboptimal play.


None of these assumptions are ones that I am willing to make on the basis of the evidence supplied.



RC
 




fanboy2000

Adventurer
As another note, from the original designer himself:

E. Gary Gygax a.k.a. Col_Pladoh said:
The number of XPs given to rise a level was initially intuitive, later on based on the play of my campaign group. I think that 52 sessions to reach 10th level is about right if the time per session is about four hours. Longner sessions would reduce the number accordingly.

If getting from 1st to 8th level took 40 game sessions, as I suggested above, (1 level per 5-6 game sessions), they could reach level 10 in about 52 game sessions, just as EGG said was proper in his mind/intention/experience.
This was my experience in 3e, 3.5, and now 4e. All those games have approximately 4 hour play times, and advanced to about level 10 in a year.

The “release notes” from WotC on the reformulating of the D&D xp chart and rate, said that they wanted a group to be able to reach level 20 within 2 years. That would mean the group could reach level 10 in 1 year (52 weekly game sessions). (I’ve heard “2 years” and “18 months”, but I can’t find the information on the WotC Web site right now.)
Two years is about what I experienced as a DM in 3e. My longest running D&D game was over two years and the players got to about level 20. The group took occasional breaks to play different games, so it was probably 104 actual 3e game sessions to level 20. (The campaign's last adventure was the Bastion of Broken Souls).

Also note:

E. Gary Gygax said:
If play was intensive dungeon crawling, the 52 play sessions might take up only a few weeks of game time, with several adventure sessions being the continuation of a single day of delving.
This is also consistent with my experiences with editions 3 on up.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
Fanboy2000, I would find these quotes rather more convincing than the rest of the thread, if there was a link-back to the original quotes, so that they could be read in context.


RC
 

fanboy2000

Adventurer
Fanboy2000, I would find these quotes rather more convincing than the rest of the thread, if there was a link-back to the original quotes, so that they could be read in context.
Quasqueton quoted Gygax back in post thirty (page 2). The blue square will get you back to that post. Though, I suspect you want the link to the quote from Gygax. That I don't have. Quasqueton might be able to tell you where he got them.
 
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